# Pastebin yPaHUMit
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11:30:13 ** START OF BOOKCLUB **
11:30:13 ***********************
11:30:29 so, did you all like or dislike the story?
11:30:50 S<Slope> I enjoyed it
11:30:55 C<copane> dunno
11:31:02 S<Slope> not sure if I'd say "liked" lol
11:31:02 G<~groke> i like it, entertaining
11:31:14 M<MrPeeps> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Expectations
11:31:21 G<~groke> it was like listening to a girl i once had a crush on
11:31:53 → jfoifs joined (~jfoifs@gothic.industrial)
11:31:58 G<~groke> hey jfoifs :-)
11:31:59 S<Slope> hi jfoifs
11:32:04 G<~groke> how're you doing
11:32:10 J<jfoifs> hi guys
11:32:13 G<ghost_grrl> i really liked it. i just read it basically
11:32:19 J<jfoifs> i'm okay 
11:32:38 S<Slope> it read as very authentic
11:32:40 G<~groke> what did you not "like" slope?
11:32:49 D<doru_araeba> It reminds me being used by people who've known me. They come to me for my help them and then they desert me.
11:33:00 Forget them
11:33:19 S<Slope> well, parts of it made me uncomfortable, groke. So it wasn't all pure pleasure. But I enjoyed the challenge and authenticity of it
11:33:38 D<doru_araeba> No particular feelings about this. All I can say is that I read it.
11:33:44 G<ghost_grrl> yeah, it makes me think of all the things people do for love
11:33:48 G<~groke> so you think pip was using gwen, doru_araeba ?
11:33:56 S<Slope> reminded me of girls I knew in high school and the complicated relationships they have
11:34:06 D<doru_araeba> Yes, groke
11:34:16 G<~groke> what made you uncomfortable if one may ask Slope 
11:34:31 G<ghost_grrl> and how sometimes its the thing you hate/won't allow that attracts you, or like you least like in yourself maybe
11:34:40 G<~groke> i see doru_araeba.. but did pip have an obligation to stay in gwens life forever?
11:34:48 S<Slope> the Leanne scene, and when Pip left her for Kate
11:34:50 D<doru_araeba> You lift someone up and once they've reached, they stamp on you
11:35:02 groke: Well it was a planned venture
11:35:11 And there were no plans to quit
11:35:27 D<desvoeuxensis> I liked it.  I found the descriptions of cognitions and coping techniques beautifully stated and deeply resonant 
11:35:29 D<doru_araeba> Pip abrubtly leaves
11:35:49 G<~groke> pip followed her heart, that's in her nature
11:35:52 S<Slope> yes, desvo. Very much so
11:36:03 D<doru_araeba> groke: I suppose so
11:36:12 G<~groke> if she had been stable and loyal she'd not been pip
11:36:21 S— Slope lives one out of every 4 seconds...
11:36:32 D<desvoeuxensis> I think it's a bit extreme to say that Pip was using gwen.
11:36:41 Sex and love is complicated.
11:36:41 D<doru_araeba> Is it?
11:36:49 S<Slope> I think they were both impulsive and immature
11:36:49 D<doru_araeba> Why didn't she just leave on her own?
11:36:54 Yes Slope
11:37:00 I agree
11:37:02 G<~groke> did you read the story jfoifs 
11:37:36 D<doru_araeba> She had no real need to get together with Gwen
11:37:39 D<desvoeuxensis> I think the big line Pip crossed was when she told Gwen she couldn't do the Peep show or she couldn't be with her.
11:37:52 Other than that I found her choices just the usual muddle
11:38:02 D<doru_araeba> Of adolescence?
11:38:03 D<desvoeuxensis> They were young but I think people behave the same at any age
11:38:08 D<doru_araeba> (completing your sentence)
11:38:17 S<Slope> interesting, desvo. Why was that a line crosser? 
11:38:25 D<desvoeuxensis> The usual muddle of romance and friendship and intimacy and sex and blahblahblah
11:38:31 G<~groke> yeah i guess pip wanted to control gwen a bit
11:38:37 D<doru_araeba> Indeed
11:38:47 Love triangle
11:39:11 S<Slope> I suppose it gave her the false impression that Pip wanted to be exclusive with her
11:39:12 D<desvoeuxensis> I think pip was obsessed with gwen in her own way.  And that she wanted her to stay the same.
11:39:36 G<~groke> pip is a bit of a douche when you think about it
11:39:45 D— doru_araeba seconds
11:40:01 D<desvoeuxensis> Why do you feel pip was a douche lol
11:40:04 D<doru_araeba> Why does she agree to help Gwen in the end though?
11:40:11 Remorse?
11:40:15 Pity?
11:40:21 G<ghost_grrl> because she's attracted to her only when she isn't "herself"
11:40:34 D<doru_araeba> Only with the wig, only with the wig
11:40:38 G<ghost_grrl> like in the beginning when it says she wants everyone who isn't her
11:41:07 D<desvoeuxensis> I struggled with that a bit, ghost_grrl.  I think that's gwen's interpretation, but is it true?
11:41:13 S<Slope> the end is so soul destroying for Gwen, to realize that she only likes her when she's someone else. It's like the final nail in the coffin of this toxic relationship
11:41:16 G<~groke> pip was a douche because of first giving gwen rules to go by, then breaking her part of the contract without warning 
11:41:19 D<desvoeuxensis> Maybe pip was into gwen being able to shake some of her holdups.
11:41:27 D<doru_araeba> Yuppers, slope
11:41:29 D<desvoeuxensis> Come out of her fetal stage a bit
11:41:44 D<doru_araeba> Exactly groke. That's what I thought
11:42:10 desvoeuxensis: Do you mean to say that pip was trying to test Gwen's limits?
11:42:51 S<Slope> I think it's a stretch to think that Pip wanted to see her grow as a person, more like she was finally not-bored with her
11:43:56 G<~groke> yeah
11:44:04 D<desvoeuxensis> Not exactly, doru_araeba.  But if you think about the way gwen was holding herself back so much with pip, and with the world in general, she was so reserved and inert and inside her head.  I think it's reasonable to expect that it would be hard to explore your sexuality with someone like that.
11:44:27 Maybe gwen just showed pip glimpses of the whole world that was in there
11:44:33 Including parts that were true about gwen
11:44:36 Not just the act
11:44:41 D<doru_araeba> Glimpses she thought Gwen was missing out on?
11:44:45 G<ghost_grrl> yeah, that's true des. there's really this sense through out the story that gwen isn't confident in her skin or in herself, that she would do the type of work she does only because she finally figured out she could do it (like as if its a surprise she could do anything well). so maybe she's unreliable in saying that no one likes her except when she's not
11:44:45 herself, and that in the end the "proof" isn't what we think....
11:45:42 D<desvoeuxensis> I mean I know I'm hypothesizing, but it seems like you can't really trust Gwen's interpretation completely either.  What about Pip's side?  What was she needing?  Maybe it wasn't all just a game to her.  Maybe she was genuinely trying to find her way and keep her friend and find her sexuality and being stimulated by different things.
11:46:20 S<Slope> I think Pip was just in it for the lulz
11:46:36 D<desvoeuxensis> I mean she's a sexual abuse victim also, so perhaps her exploration was a bit honky because of that.
11:46:41 D<doru_araeba> Why is it that in every story we crave for more perspectives?
11:46:49 D<desvoeuxensis> I have experienced that with people.
11:47:03 S<Slope> mmm...yeah, I forgot about that
11:47:22 She was probably working through some bad-upbringing/molestation issues
11:48:01 more perspectives lead to greater understanding, doru
11:48:19 but I think I see what you mean
11:48:30 why are we always needing to fill in these blanks?
11:48:30 D<desvoeuxensis> Yeah, it can get kind of strange at times.  Processing that kind of thing.  Testing things in unconventional ways.
11:48:41 lol these blanks
11:49:34 Yeah ghost_grrl.  Gwen definitely is just barely cracking her own understanding of herself.  She definitely reminds me of people with PDs who are severely self-dissociating to the extent that their self is not really that known to them.
11:49:47 C<copane> was her real name gwen though?
11:49:54 D<desvoeuxensis> No, but we have no other name.
11:49:54 S<Slope> no
11:49:57 D<doru_araeba> Slope: I get that, in fact, I'm the one usually expressing the wish for more perspectives. But does that mean all of this is entirely speculation?
11:50:01 C<copane> can we even assume she?
11:50:02 S<Slope> Tellulah or Astrid
11:50:13 D<desvoeuxensis> Well, she does say she has breasts
11:50:24 But idk
11:50:25 C<copane> mm
11:50:27 D<doru_araeba> She is a she
11:50:30 M<MrPeeps> no, that was the name of the post that stood on its own
11:50:34 D<doru_araeba> Mentioned
11:51:08 D<desvoeuxensis> Yeah the post too lol
11:51:22 We could say narrator, gwen (for the persona), and post-gwen
11:51:30 D<doru_araeba> They're both definitely of the same gender and since Pip is a female, so is Gwen.
11:51:37 G<~groke> i thought of Gwen as someone exploring the world like a child, without any pre-determined opinions about how things should be, associations flowing in unexpected ways, doing things in an experimental way without being sure of how to do it, and struggling (?) to maintain this attitude in the face of the harsh, indifferent and instable reality
11:51:41 D<desvoeuxensis> We are probably going to need to differentiate between the narrator and the peep-show persona at some point
11:52:20 M<MrPeeps> maybe pip really did want to be on her own, and "gwen", this semi-dependant friend from high school was too clingy
11:52:28 S<Slope> the infestation is *everywhere*
11:52:43 D<desvoeuxensis> That's a good connection, MrPeeps  - between the post and the autonomy
11:52:51 M<MrPeeps> :)
11:53:08 there's also a recurring them about martyrdom
11:53:11 theme
11:53:17 D<desvoeuxensis> Especially since Pip was going to get that hardware part to set it up properly, but gwen managed to cobble it upward with nails on her own lol
11:53:47 Yeah what do the cockroaches mean?
11:53:59 S<Slope> evil in the world
11:54:09 that cant be exterminated
11:54:27 D<desvoeuxensis> Well the most memorable part is when she's on the couch and they interrupt her fantasies about pip
11:54:33 M<MrPeeps> yeah, the narrator really seems surprised by a lot of the world's realities
11:54:47 D<desvoeuxensis> yes perhaps that's it, MrPeeps 
11:54:53 The surprising realities of life
11:55:06 M<MrPeeps> but it also seems like they both want to suffer
11:55:44 there's a romance in suffering
11:55:51 C<copane> the story felt like it was from 70-80s
11:56:22 M<MrPeeps> how so?
11:56:24 D<desvoeuxensis> Well it was a video store
11:56:31 G<~groke> true
11:56:40 M<MrPeeps> and they listened to tapes
11:56:42 G<~groke> that stuff is on the internet now
11:56:51 or so i've heard
11:56:58 C<copane> the lack of modern things like smartphones, the old-ish atmosphere
11:56:59 S<Slope> there are still live peep shows I believe
11:57:14 D<desvoeuxensis> Those media were still present in the 90s though
11:57:16 M<MrPeeps> personal ads in the paper
11:57:24 C<copane> could be 90s as well
11:57:35 S<Slope> yes
11:58:08 anyone draw any paralells between Bartleby, Akaky and one or the other of these girls?
11:58:23 C<copane> i'd prefer not to
11:58:32 S<Slope> heh
11:58:52 D<doru_araeba> Slope: Fairly static characters
11:59:03 S<Slope> There seems to be some loneliness, alienation in common
11:59:15 inability to connect in the way they would like
11:59:44 D<doru_araeba> Akakiy was able to connect with his work, and he was happy
11:59:54 Not lonely at all
11:59:57 An introvert
12:00:09 S<Slope> yeah, that's true
12:00:17 G<~groke> yeah i didnt think AKakiy was lonely
12:00:25 S<Slope> maybe not Akakiy 
12:00:36 G<~groke> Bartleby was like storge
12:00:37 S<Slope> I'm just feeling it out...
12:00:47 D<desvoeuxensis> Yes I think that's right, Slope.  A stunted ability to connect is probably the theme that links this with the rest of our stories. 
12:01:09 S<Slope> yes, that's what I was going for
12:01:19 Alienation
12:01:25 D— desvoeuxensis passes Slope the trophy. :)
12:01:33 S— Slope shares it
12:01:33 D<desvoeuxensis> idk who had it but that sucker is yours now!
12:01:44 S<Slope> hehe
12:01:57 G<~groke> MrPeeps, why did you pick this story
12:01:59 might i ask
12:02:03 M<MrPeeps> it's almost like they set out to have this experience though
12:02:19 for a number of reasons, groke
12:02:23 G<~groke> i thought you'd pick scifi
12:02:47 D<desvoeuxensis> Gwen obviously connects to themes of avoidant personalities and inward-turning for me.
12:02:50 Especially this line
12:02:52 M<MrPeeps> i liked it when i originally read it, i wanted something more modern, and i wanted something written by a woman with a female protagonist
12:02:53 D<desvoeuxensis> I wanted to talk about myself, too, badly, but it was hard to know where
12:02:53 to begin. She was always so far ahead of me, in the minutiae of poems she had written in reference to
12:02:53 dreams she had dreamed. So I just hung out, in a loose imitation of Pip. Pip did not think much of
12:02:53 Tammy, but she was mildly intrigued by the normalcy of the friendship.
12:03:17 That's interesting, MrPeeps.
12:03:28 G<ghost_grrl> one of my ex's really loves miranda july, so i was happy to see her as the author.
12:03:43 D<desvoeuxensis> It's my first exposure to her, but I am going to read more now.
12:03:44 G<ghost_grrl> as i've always wondered what her work was like
12:03:58 same des
12:04:23 S<Slope> I found it to be a novel and refreshing perspective :)
12:04:23 M<MrPeeps> her book Nobody Belongs Here More Than You is pretty fun
12:04:28 G<~groke> good thinking MrPeeps 
12:04:45 G— ghost_grrl takes note
12:04:58 M<MrPeeps> that's the collection this story was in
12:05:03 G<~groke> its a break from the trend of avpd-guy stories from the 19th century :p
12:05:09 M<MrPeeps> haha
12:05:19 G<ghost_grrl> :)
12:05:56 how long do these meetings usually go for btw?
12:06:12 S<Slope> I'd like to hear other guy's impressions...inex? hoph?
12:06:23 D<desvoeuxensis> I want to hear more about MrPeeps's ideas on martyrdom
12:06:27 G<~groke> i saw her in some movie she made, her character there is a lot like the narrator here 
12:06:32 M<MrPeeps> it just runs through the whole thing
12:06:51 narrator standing with one foot in the tub, pip doing the dishes, etc
12:06:54 H<hophenhauer> Slope i don't have any idea what is going on here..
12:07:11 i haven't read anything of this
12:07:14 M<MrPeeps> why did they quit their jobs as furniture sanders?
12:07:16 S<Slope> oh
12:07:25 G<~groke> ghost_grrl, usually an hour i think
12:07:30 S<Slope> cuz it wasn't "dignified" lol
12:07:36 M<MrPeeps> We needed time to consider ourselves, to come up with a theory about who we were and set it to music.
12:07:47 G<ghost_grrl> they wanted to explore themselves more
12:07:53 on a personal level i guess
12:07:54 H<hophenhauer> i should leave
12:08:01 D<desvoeuxensis> So you feel that Pip was martyring herself by dragging gwen around, out of her home, into the city, up into a shot at a real life of her own.  And Gwen was martyring herself by staying with a woman who could not fall in love with her.
12:08:04 H<hophenhauer> you don't need guys like me
12:08:04 S<Slope> nah, stick around
12:08:08 M<MrPeeps> i think they wanted to experience some fucked up stuff
12:08:10 G<~groke> its ok hophenhauer i invited you so you can participate next week if u wanna
12:08:16 M<MrPeeps> stay hop 
12:08:31 H<hophenhauer> okay thanks
12:08:34 D<desvoeuxensis> hophenhauer just stay.  We likes you. :)
12:08:47 G<ghost_grrl> i really like that line
12:09:06 M<MrPeeps> not necessarily, desvo. but i think they set out to do uncomfortable things
12:09:25 and they saw a romance in that
12:09:33 D<desvoeuxensis> Does anyone else feel like maybe Gwen isn't really as in love with Pip as she thinks she is?  Just a bit codependent?
12:09:47 There are a few times where it feels like it's just an obsession.
12:10:15 G<~groke> yeah i doubt gwen was into girls really
12:10:38 and pip knew it
12:10:41 thats why she left
12:10:52 D<desvoeuxensis> Interesting theory.
12:10:52 S<Slope> I looked at Pip and for a split second I felt as though she was nobody special in the larger scheme of my life. She was just some girl who had tied me to her leg to help her sink when she jumped off the bridge. Then I blinked and was in love with her again.
12:11:02 G<ghost_grrl> hm, i felt like she was pretty in love with her.... but maybe i don't know the difference :P
12:11:10 D<desvoeuxensis> :P
12:11:18 Yeah I was thinking about your line from yesterday, ghost_grrl.
12:11:30 G<ghost_grrl> which one?
12:12:03 ⇐ FicusBenjamin quit (uid120504@The.Man.from.Another.Place)
12:12:04 D<desvoeuxensis> About whether you knew what love was, to your therapist.
12:12:27 I think that's a relatable thought.
12:12:31 And it resonates in this story, for me
12:12:54 M<MrPeeps> I paced around our tiny room. It didn’t even occur to me to go outside; I had no idea how to navigate the city without her.
12:13:31 G<ghost_grrl> slope: that's interesting, yeah. initially i felt like that part was about her feeling unloveable, like that continuous feeling of not being important to anyone, especially pip.. but that last line is interesting and shifts it a bit
12:14:00 D<desvoeuxensis> How do you differentiate between having only one person in the world, the only person who knows anything about you --- and love.  I mean Gwen just doesn't have anyone else she's been intimate with in any way.
12:14:12 Yes, MrPeeps 
12:14:34 G<ghost_grrl> sounds familiar >.<
12:14:38 M<MrPeeps> yeah, and it sort of seemed like pip knew it
12:14:38 D<desvoeuxensis> And they are obsessed with not being alone.  This line grabbed me: We were always
12:14:38      getting away with something, which implied that someone was always watching us, which meant we were not
12:14:38      alone in this world.
12:15:08 M<MrPeeps> mm, yeah. i liked that a lot
12:15:29 S<Slope> how old were these girls? 18?
12:16:00 M<MrPeeps> i think so
12:16:15 G<~groke> mm
12:16:39 M<MrPeeps> but they wanted to be alone too. they wished they were orphans
12:16:40 S<Slope> definitely captured that confused, brazen, exploratory time
12:16:56 well, they wanted that excuse anyway :)
12:17:02 M<MrPeeps> yeah :)
12:17:04 D<desvoeuxensis> Gwen is pretty good at just going off into her own realm of non-existance.  Her whole thing with stopping time and repeating window and thinking about shampoo.  And whether anything is real, or whether it's all just a joke.  And then Pip is completely opposite, diving into things, experimenting, having insane dreams about rich people adopting her.  It's like
12:17:04 one of them is trying to throw themselves into life and the other one is trying to exit it.
12:17:35 S<Slope> different types of dissociation
12:17:39 D<desvoeuxensis> I think it was just impossible for them to go through this transition into selfhood and keep their relationship together
12:17:40 S<Slope> freeze and flight
12:17:52 D<desvoeuxensis> They only worked when they were children, waiting, together.
12:18:01 M<MrPeeps> and gwen didn't need to do this in the way pip did. gwen has two parents and enough graduation money to get them started
12:18:21 D<desvoeuxensis> That's true, MrPeeps 
12:18:52 S<Slope> She was "slumming it"
12:19:00 M<MrPeeps> yeah, it's not real in the same way for her
12:19:12 and she probably goes home at the end, right?
12:19:23 S<Slope> I would imagine
12:19:35 D<desvoeuxensis> I think it's interesting the way Gwen starts her story by feeling inadequately traumatized (embarrassingly had 2 parents) and yet is clearly so damaged.  It's just another self-dismissal.
12:19:36 S<Slope> she quits, calls mom, gets a greyhound bus ticket home
12:20:05 M<MrPeeps> why do you think she's damaged?
12:20:31 D<desvoeuxensis> I think nobody develops such a sophisticated toolkit for exiting situations, without having had reason for it in the past.
12:20:36 mentally-exiting*
12:20:51 Gwen is a master at leaving herself behind.
12:20:57 M<MrPeeps> yeah, that's interesting
12:21:36 good one
12:21:43 ⇐ jfoifs quit (~jfoifs@gothic.industrial) Quit: Lock the target, bait the line, spread the neat, catch the man...
12:21:54 D<desvoeuxensis> and she's very unstable and dependent
12:21:57 In truth, I had not yet learned how to hate anyone but my parents. I was
12:21:57 actually just standing there in love. I was not even really standing; if she had walked away suddenly, I
12:21:57 would have fallen.
12:22:08 That kind of thing is not what someone healthy feels, even in love.
12:22:25 She ceases to exist when Pip leaves the apartment
12:22:36 Just stops time until Pip returns
12:22:39 M<MrPeeps> totally right. she really doesn't have a strong sense of self
12:22:46 D<desvoeuxensis> And then when Pip leave-leaves her
12:22:52 She abandons herself completely and turns into Gwen
12:22:59 M<MrPeeps> yep
12:23:17 D<desvoeuxensis> Pip was the only reason for her to BE herself 
12:23:34 That's familiar to me
12:23:49 G<~groke> yeah good observation
12:23:49 M<MrPeeps> is she so dissociated because she's trying to love pip?
12:23:52 D<desvoeuxensis> Someone who really only connects with their sense of self, around someone who knows them well enough to remind them who they are
12:23:57 M<MrPeeps> do you think she's on her way to finding herself at the end?
12:24:07 D<desvoeuxensis> I think she's just dissociated, regardless of pip
12:24:15 But pip is her one anchor she has in life
12:24:26 G<~groke> the girl should been sent to therapy or kept in an institution 
12:24:31 D<desvoeuxensis> Now that pip is gone she will eventually find another anchor, but she'll drift in selflessness for a while
12:24:41 S<Slope> get thee to a nunnery!
12:24:56 G<~groke> lol
12:25:13 S<Slope> that sounds about right, desvoeuxensis 
12:25:27 G<~groke> well desvoeuxensis didnt she become independant and developed an identity kinda when she worked as stripper
12:25:30 M<MrPeeps> If no one came in the next twelve minutes, I would yell the word “I,” as in me, myself, and. After seven minutes, the door dinged and a man came in. He bought a video and left.
12:25:31 I!
12:25:36 D<desvoeuxensis> I doubt Gwen really has the ability to be herself without some external person connecting with her
12:25:57 Nah, she was just chameleoning the role that MrPeeps put in front of her, groke
12:26:12 G<~groke> but she felt she could jump over cars and do anything
12:26:13 D<desvoeuxensis> That wasn't her new identity, just a husk for her to wear
12:26:27 That was the fearlessness of complete dissociation
12:26:41 Haven't you ever met a dissociator who got a power rush when they just kind of left their vulnerable self behind?
12:26:48 G<~groke> nope
12:26:51 M<MrPeeps> she was wearing gwens skin as a suit O_O
12:26:53 D<desvoeuxensis> And then they get super lippy in chat, tell people what they really think
12:27:01 Become brave
12:27:07 Maybe even aggressive
12:27:08 M<MrPeeps> yes
12:27:14 S<Slope> I have seen folks lash out, yes
12:27:14 G<~groke> so u are saying she had a nihilistic catharsis like that of eckhart tolle
12:27:17 D<desvoeuxensis> Because they aren't connected to their self at that moment
12:27:27 They have dissociatied from the part of themselves that can feel pain
12:27:34 It gives them an invulnerable feeling
12:27:47 So they can say what they really think etc, or other things of course
12:27:54 In this case she could get a job and do survival things
12:28:06 Instead of waiting for Pip to come home, like she would normally do
12:28:24 D— desvoeuxensis googles nihilistic catharsis.
12:28:27 G<~groke> so like the "joker" role
12:29:25 D<desvoeuxensis> Yes joke
12:29:29 groke*
12:29:32 Weird
12:29:34 S<Slope> hah
12:29:36 G<~groke> freudian slip
12:29:43 D<desvoeuxensis> Yes groke, nihilistic catharsis
12:29:45 haha
12:29:53 S<Slope> whats a nihilistic catharsis?
12:29:58 google taught me nothing
12:30:20 G<~groke> giving up your belief system in exchange for freedom
12:30:34 S<Slope> I see
12:30:54 M<MrPeeps> so why did she quit Mr. Peeps?
12:31:02 D<desvoeuxensis> Good question
12:31:26 G<~groke> i thought she wanted to go on to new adventures
12:31:31 D<desvoeuxensis> Well I think she was just done, really.  Done acting out against Pip, and processing everything.
12:31:34 G<~groke> like the child she was
12:31:51 D<desvoeuxensis> Mr Peeps wasn't about rent - it was about following Pip around
12:32:02 It was that part of letting go where you are still doing things that are about them
12:32:16 Hoping they will get mad or react or it will just make you feel close to them b/c it's bc of them
12:32:20 M<MrPeeps> she said in her fever dream that if she let pip shoot her, she (narrator) would win
12:32:23 D<desvoeuxensis> And then eventually you're just done
12:32:45 G<~groke> yeah MrPeeps if she said Bang first
12:33:02 M<MrPeeps> seem to me like more martyrdom. she wins if she dies
12:33:06 ⇐ ArmadilloRedead quit (uid188781@Rizon-26EC08BA.tooting.irccloud.com) Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
12:33:07 G<~groke> i thought that was just a way of saying she had to leave first, before she got kicked out
12:33:07 D<desvoeuxensis> Yes she would win because she is a self-deserter.  And to be killed by the person you love is the ultimate self-desertion.
12:33:41 I think she was just fantasizing about being freed from herself
12:33:50 The real self
12:33:52 M<MrPeeps> is she suicidal, you think?
12:34:24 D<desvoeuxensis> I don't think she's in active danger, but I think she doesn't love herself and has no real purpose for living
12:34:46 She's just drifting in a non-existence that is painful
12:34:50 M<MrPeeps> she's not something that needs nothing, that's for sure
12:34:57 D<desvoeuxensis> Yes exactly
12:35:04 G<~groke> i thought she was doing fine lol
12:35:14 M<MrPeeps> :D
12:35:16 G<~groke> we had quite polar opposite understanding of this story
12:35:22 D<desvoeuxensis> lol
12:35:24 M<MrPeeps> it's all speculation
12:35:30 D<desvoeuxensis> Perhaps Gwen reminds us of different people
12:35:37 G<~groke> yeah i think thats it desvoeuxensis 
12:36:03 it reminded me of ppl who dont take anything too seriosly and are happy to try on new things
12:36:15 M<MrPeeps> i want to think she grew up at the end, and was on her way to finding an independent sense of self, but who knows
12:36:42 D<desvoeuxensis> I think she is on that journey, MrPeeps,  but it's a long road... maybe not even really achievable in a lifetime.
12:36:52 M<MrPeeps> too true
12:36:54 D<desvoeuxensis> I do think it's her intention.
12:37:03 For lack of anything better to do, perhaps
12:37:08 M<MrPeeps> she accepts she needs her parents, anyway
12:37:17 probably
12:38:21 D<desvoeuxensis> Do you think Gwen is capable of living a more healthy life, or do you think she will find another Pip?
12:38:33 G<~groke> i think the former
12:38:46 M<MrPeeps> that's been a big part of my life, accepting the degree to which i need people
12:38:48 hmm
12:38:58 S<Slope> Could go either way
12:39:14 18 is super young
12:39:17 D<desvoeuxensis> I had done strange things like
12:39:17 this before. I had hidden under cars for hours, waiting to be found
12:39:30 I think she will do this
12:39:32 Wait to be found
12:39:38 By someone
12:39:42 M<MrPeeps> ugh
12:39:44 D<desvoeuxensis> Whoever it happens to be
12:39:49 M<MrPeeps> i hope not
12:39:51 D<desvoeuxensis> Will set the course for her next chapter
12:40:04 M<MrPeeps> that's depressing
12:40:10 D<desvoeuxensis> lol sorry Av0
12:40:16 M<MrPeeps> :)
12:40:41 but i'm glad you pointed it out
12:40:49 that it's a possibility
12:40:54 G<~groke> or she'll get locked up in an institution
12:41:02 D<desvoeuxensis> lol groke really wants this chick locked up!
12:41:07 S<Slope> haha
12:41:15 M<MrPeeps> :D
12:41:17 D<desvoeuxensis> Why do you think so groke?
12:41:25 G<~groke> can't have all that vitality walking around freely on the streets
12:41:41 M— MrPeeps honks
12:41:57 D<desvoeuxensis> It is so strange to me that you find Gwen so lively
12:42:02 M<MrPeeps> i liked this line too:
12:42:50 I often felt that I would be shot in the back with an arrow or gun, but this didn’t happen. The world wasn’t safer than I had thought; on the contrary, it was so dangerous that my practically naked self fit right in, like a car crash, it happened every day.
12:43:09 S<Slope> that was good
12:43:11 D<desvoeuxensis> Yeah
12:43:28 See, self-deserting
12:43:34 M<MrPeeps> naked might have two meanings there
12:44:48 D<desvoeuxensis> I think it does, but not in the sense of her being more vulnerable than normal.  I think that when she strips down to this level of clothing, and then even less, she is accepting that she is fragile, and that she just doesn't care if she gets broken.
12:45:05 She is ceasing to self-protect.
12:45:37 G<~groke> well she tries to avoid the stalky and threatening customers
12:45:39 D<desvoeuxensis> She's no longer curling up in her apartment, with her one safe person.  She is just throwing herself out there to get shot. 
12:45:51 G<~groke> so she does some bare minimum self protection at least
12:45:59 M<MrPeeps> i was thinking like it could mean her "true" self, that one usually hides
12:46:28 S<Slope> I'm going with desvoeuxensis's interpretation.
12:47:09 pretty much nailed it from every angle
12:47:23 🏆
12:47:36 D<desvoeuxensis> Well yeah she's not actively suicidal, but she's intentionally putting herself at excessive risk for sure.
12:47:39 And thanks Slope lol
12:48:26 M<MrPeeps> word :)
12:49:24 D<desvoeuxensis> I think when she is truly vulnerable, that's when she is slowing down time to the point at which she is barely experiencing life, because it is too painful to her.  Like here: What if we all used expensive shampoo. What if we were kidding all the time and
12:49:24 cared about nothing. My head relaxes, and I do the exercise where you imagine you are turning into
12:49:24 honey. My mind slows down to a rate that would not be considered functional for any other job. I am
12:49:24 alive only one out of every four seconds, I register only fifteen minutes out of the hour.
12:49:38 That paragraph was so familiar to me.
12:49:49 S— Slope nods
12:49:51 D<desvoeuxensis> That's what my Gwen is like.  Only living 15m out of the hour, every day.
12:50:04 Like an animal in hibernation
12:50:08 Alive but not alive
12:50:15 S<Slope> zoned out
12:50:19 D<desvoeuxensis> Yeah
12:50:51 I really loved this author
12:50:58 Just amazing stuff to be able to describe such things.
12:51:00 H<hophenhauer> well i can at least say i like the style of writing
12:51:16 D<desvoeuxensis> :)
12:51:22 It's beautiful for sure
12:51:25 G<ghost_grrl> guys i'm only half here because i had another thing going at the same time, but i'm gonna read all of your comments later and i really did love this story choice
12:51:37 D<desvoeuxensis> Understood ghost_grrl. :)
12:51:46 Really nice to have you in the mix
12:51:54 G<ghost_grrl> heh thanks
12:51:57 D<desvoeuxensis> Thanks for chiming in despite all your stuff - I <3 your thoughts
12:52:13 S<Slope> I'm only half here cuz I'm painfully dissociating relating to the character
12:52:13 G— ghost_grrl blushes and hides
12:52:31 M<MrPeeps> yeah, i really appreciate your interpretation, desvo. i think slope is probably right. 
12:52:54 really good
12:53:26 D<desvoeuxensis> This story was really personal for sure.
12:53:34 I thought it was lovely that...
12:53:42 after reading so many stories that were distanced from the narrator or subject
12:53:47 G<~groke> good to hear that you are here hophenhauer :)
12:53:47 D<desvoeuxensis> That we could read this one, which is so painfully close
12:53:53 M<MrPeeps> i'm super glad you liked it
12:53:53 D<desvoeuxensis> It was a good choice for the group
12:54:05 M<MrPeeps> i appreciate that. i was worried
12:54:08 G<~groke> great that you came this time ghost_grrl :-)
12:54:16 G<ghost_grrl> :>
12:54:52 H<hophenhauer> i'm afraid i cannot be of much use to this channel
12:54:53 D<desvoeuxensis> I think you did us all a service by picking it, Av0 :)
12:54:57 G<~groke> *********************
12:54:57 ** END OF BOOKCLUB **
12:54:57 *********************