# Pastebin vpb9prwY
2:07 PM <•barredowl> welcome, one and all, to another scheduled discussion
2:07 PM if you are not aware, this week we are discussing various groups of interest
2:08 PM in particular, we're looking at /smaller/ groups of interest
2:08 PM wednesday we looked at some various chicago spirit formats, and today we will be looking at the one and only
2:08 PM parawatch
2:08 PM the two tales we have in line are the following:
2:08 PM first, we will discuss a little ditty by the name of abwesenheit
2:09 PM just to explore the singular stories that the parawatch format allows
2:09 PM so we're gonna link it rq, and we're gonna read it together
2:09 PM even if you've read it before, still read it along
2:09 PM so, on the count of 3
2:09 PM 1
2:09 PM 2
2:09 PM 3
2:10 PM .s abwesenheit
2:10 PM <•Secretary_Helen> PircBot 1.5.0 Java IRC Bot - www.jibble.org barredowl: Abwesenheit (Rating: +99. Written 273 days ago By: The Great Hippo) - http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/abwesenheit
2:10 PM <•barredowl> read on
2:10 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan do you think Hippo went by like The Mediocre Hippo when they were just starting out
2:10 PM <•barredowl> perhaps ;p
2:13 PM <red3> I've finished.
2:14 PM <•barredowl> me too :>
2:14 PM gonna wait for a couple others to confirm they've finished before we start up
2:15 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan i've finished too
2:15 PM <BlueJones> Just finished it
2:15 PM <•barredowl> alright then, so should we start up our discussion?
2:16 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan wait for cal
2:16 PM <•barredowl> i will
2:16 PM <•Calibri_Bold> Just go ahead, something’s come up.
2:17 PM <•barredowl> ok
2:17 PM so, as always, what are y'all's first impressions?
2:17 PM <•Calibri_Bold> I’ll be ready soon though!
2:17 PM <BlueJones> It was... weird to say the least
2:17 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan It feels like a weird choice to make this a parawatch thing
2:17 PM <•barredowl> i thought it was very atmospheric and executed its premise excellently here, while still capturing that classic creepypasta feel
2:17 PM <red3> Something like would really work on a site that's not SCP, but since it is on this site, a lot of my suspension of disbelief is ruined due to the boring effects of the movies.
2:18 PM <•barredowl> hmm, i can see that
2:18 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan yeah I can see that
2:18 PM <•barredowl> personally, i wasn't really thinking per se about the effects of the film, and moreso the overall atmosphere it left
2:18 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan I think, perhaps, that's kinda why it works as a parawatch piece?
2:18 PM <•barredowl> the piece, to clarify?
2:18 PM *.
2:18 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan Because they don't really have to make it feel anomalous?
2:19 PM Also, I think for me, the real feeling of unease is considering who Josef Hellmuth is
2:19 PM <•barredowl> yeah, this just feels like a pretty standard creepy thing, which in the case of forum-goers sharing spooky stories with one another makes sense and doesn't feel out of place
2:19 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan or, perhaps, what 
2:19 PM <BlueJones> Its certainly something I'd like to read more of. But I feel like it doesn't really spark that creepy feeling (I never read creepypastas so I have no idea what to feel when reading one)
2:19 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan Yeah; it's weird cos the parawatch format is necessary for it not feel weirdly underwhelming as a spooky story
2:20 PM but it also feels like it doesn't really utilise what makes parawatch great?
2:20 PM <•barredowl> yeah, i understand that
2:20 PM <red3> That's why I think that this would work outside of SCP. A reader on this wiki would expect something fresh and interesting, so something that doesn't fit that isn't really going to interest them unless they were around when creepypasta was a really big thing.
2:20 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan (specifically, for me, I love parawatch for it having people responding to stuff?)
2:20 PM <•barredowl> i didn't really consider it as utilizing the "forumers talking with one another" and moreso the "stumbling onto this spooky forums at 3am"
2:20 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan yeah
2:21 PM <red3> It does have that quality, though.
2:21 PM <•barredowl> i think this is fairly interesting
2:21 PM even within the confines of the wiki
2:21 PM <red3> The one thing that disappointed me the most was the ending.
2:21 PM <BlueJones> However this piece really makes me want to know more about the films made by Hellmuth and what happened to Hellmuth himself. The one with the hall of mirrors is certainly something that caught my attention
2:21 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan red3: how so?
2:22 PM <•barredowl> i think the ending's a nice resolution to the whole "death of the author" debacle in the letter
2:22 PM <BlueJones> barredowl: that note was certainly philosophical at least to me
2:22 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan barredowl, weird question: how old do you think the letter is?
2:22 PM I think it predates Doppelganger
2:22 PM <•barredowl> hmm.
2:23 PM <•Calibri_Bold> I'm kind of confused as to why this is a Parawatch tale, of all things.
2:23 PM <red3> So, the other movies have pretty traditional anomalous effects of being too large, being chased by a shadow monster, etc. so there's this mystery of how these films are actually made. The note answers that question, so now the only question is what is Abwesenheit. The problem here is that Abwesenheit doesn't do anything new to distinguish it from those earlier films.
2:23 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan (it was uncovered in 1961, which means it was written earlier)
2:23 PM <•barredowl> i was thinking it was his sort-of thesis statement after making doppelganger
2:23 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan hm
2:24 PM see, to me, it's a statement of intent
2:24 PM and doppelganger is made *after* he's transcended existing
2:24 PM <•barredowl> yeah, exactly
2:24 PM <BlueJones> red3: I mean, the article certainly made it clear that in certain shots, there was no camera in the frame when there should have been one
2:24 PM Which makes me thinking that it came straight from the author's mind to the film reel... if that makes sense
2:24 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan yeah
2:25 PM <•barredowl> i think abwesenheit was the whole watch party shenanigans in a roundabout sort of way
2:25 PM <red3> Where's that line? I can't find it.
2:25 PM <•barredowl> > 
To this day, vigorous debate continues over how Hellmuth achieved this and other effects (such as the absence of the camera's reflection in any one of the hall's hundreds of mirrors).
2:25 PM <BlueJones> that line
2:26 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan Abwesenheit translates to absence
2:26 PM <red3> Oh, I thought you were talking about abwesenheit.
2:26 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan which, I think means in some ways, that film doesn't really exist either
2:26 PM <•Calibri_Bold> I do like the concept of special effects being real anomalous effects.
2:26 PM <•barredowl> which yeah, is pretty fitting compared to the rest of the story's theme
2:26 PM absence
2:26 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan yeah
2:27 PM <•barredowl> i was thinking that abwesenheit was a sort of response to being uncovered by the media and shared around
2:27 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan weird question for you all: if you had to watch a hellmuth film, which one would you pick?
2:27 PM <•barredowl> hmm
2:27 PM doppelganger sounds like a good time
2:27 PM :P
2:27 PM <BlueJones> cybersqyd: The one that doesn't make me lose my mind/praying to god that it stopped? Sooo doppelganger?
2:27 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan doppelganger seems like the most conventional of them
2:28 PM I'd probably pick Nichts tbh
2:28 PM <•barredowl> yeah, it seems the most... corporeal
2:28 PM hmm
2:28 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan it sounds like exactly the kind of weird, artsy film I can vibe with sometimes
2:28 PM <•barredowl> i would like to watch nichts too
2:28 PM > 
Investigations into Basil Ottinger's disappearance (and the location of the fabled surviving print of Abwesenheit) have turned up no results.
2:29 PM see, this line makes me think that the real abwesenheit was the recorded video all along
2:29 PM which is an interesting thing to ponder.
2:29 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan Do you think Basil Ottinger is Hellmuth?
2:29 PM <•barredowl> i don't think so
2:29 PM <red3> I guess I just don't get it. On a surface level, the story is boring; on an analytical level, it's easy to come up with an explanation; and on a meta level, there doesn't seem to be anything here beyond the theme of there being no author to these anomalies.
2:30 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan red3, yeah, I mean I get that? I think it's the kind of thing that's very hit or miss depending on whether you enjoy reading about the art films?
2:30 PM And I personally do because I find them interesting
2:30 PM <•Calibri_Bold> I also want to point out that this doesn't really feel like a Parawatch tale at all.
2:30 PM <•barredowl> though i do think that the various expressions of no authorship were interesting, i can sympathize with red's point.
2:30 PM <•Calibri_Bold> And I agree with red3, yeah.
2:30 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan Calibri_Bold, do you think it'd be better if it wasn't a Parawatch thing?
2:30 PM <red3> And how does this not feel like a Parawatch tale?
2:31 PM <•barredowl> i don't think i would like this if it were just in standard tale format
2:31 PM <•Calibri_Bold> cybersqyd: Maybe a little bit.
2:31 PM <•barredowl> there's a nice framing device to it that i like
2:31 PM <BlueJones> TBH I'm in agreement with red: There wasn't really a story but rather a lot of hooks that sort of go nowhere? The anomalies I liked (no camera where logic says there's one, missing film, etc.) I still think there should be a more satisfying ending
2:31 PM <•Calibri_Bold> barredowl: Neither would I.
2:31 PM That's the conundrum I'm in.
2:32 PM I wouldn't enjoy this as a standard tale, and while Parawatch is the best way to frame this, there's just something weird about it being Parawatch, I feel.
2:32 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan Hippo talks about his intended meaning here btw: http://www.scp-wiki.net/forum/t-12270482/abwesenheit#post-4353686
2:33 PM <•barredowl> well fuck
2:34 PM <red3> I really don't like this explanation. It requires a lot of background research into elements of the article that ultimately don't matter to the story.
2:34 PM <•Calibri_Bold> Yeah.
2:34 PM <•barredowl> yeah, i can see that
2:34 PM it's an interesting interpretation, but not because it's the author's interpretation
2:34 PM <•Calibri_Bold> It also touches on religion in a really weird way.
2:34 PM <•barredowl> i just find it an interesting angle to approach it.
2:35 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan Yeah; for me there's not enough in text to really fully justify it, I think
2:35 PM but I kinda like it?
2:35 PM <•barredowl> i kinda dig it
2:35 PM <SharpEmbrace> FeelingGoodMan ironically, this piece on the death of the author relies heavily 
2:35 PM on the author's interpretation, for me at least
2:36 PM <•barredowl> death of the author doesn't mean that the author's perspective isn't a perspective worth listening to
2:36 PM it just means that the author's perspective should just be judged as another perspective
2:36 PM <SharpEmbrace> FeelingGoodMan the piece raises a compelling mystery, but in my reading i don't have the "Aha!" moment to really enjoy connecting the dots for me
2:36 PM <•barredowl> like any other
2:36 PM <•Calibri_Bold> SharpEmbrace: Agreed.
2:36 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan SharpEmbrace, yeah, this is what I mean when I say there's not enough in text to justify it
2:36 PM <•barredowl> i kinda had that aha moment
2:36 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan Like, I love it as an explanation of the events but I don't think it does quite enough to make it work?
2:37 PM <•barredowl> not with the genocide stuff
2:37 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan ...don't think the tale does enough to make the explanation work
2:37 PM <•barredowl> but with the death of the author motif here
2:37 PM <•Calibri_Bold> I'm afraid this was a downvote from me.
2:37 PM <red3> SharpEmbrace: Exactly my feelings. A lot of this explanation feels like a conspiracy theorist connecting points with absolutely no evidence. There's a dredel so it HAS to be about religion and God. The filmmaker's German so it HAS to be talking about the Holocaust. This article is about God so it HAS to be about whether or not God actually exists.
2:38 PM <SharpEmbrace> FeelingGoodMan actually
2:38 PM <•Calibri_Bold> red3: Yeah.
2:38 PM <•barredowl> i think this is an upvote from me. i can see a lot of the points brought up here, but i still very much liked it.
2:38 PM <SharpEmbrace> FeelingGoodMan "a conspiracy theorist connecting points with little evidence"
2:38 PM <•Calibri_Bold> It makes me think of MatPat in a way.
2:38 PM <SharpEmbrace> FeelingGoodMan could be an AMAZING look for Parawatch
2:38 PM if it was played into a little heavier
2:38 PM <BlueJones> How do we feel about novotes? Cause I enjoyed the anomalies but I didn't really enjoy it as a whole
2:38 PM <•barredowl> it was very atmospheric
2:38 PM <•Calibri_Bold> SharpEmbrace: Except that's not what Parawatch itself was doing.
2:38 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan BlueJones, novotes are good imo
2:38 PM <•barredowl> BlueJones: i don't novote, but you can.
2:38 PM <•Calibri_Bold> It's what Hippo was doing.
2:39 PM <red3> Look out for my new Parawatch OC PatMat.
2:39 PM <SharpEmbrace> FeelingGoodMan Calibri_Bold: true, which is less than optimal
2:39 PM <•barredowl> on the occasion i do novote (which is very rare), i explain it
2:39 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan I like it; I think it's nicely atmospheric and an enjoyable read; and it's enjoyable to think about even if the like, actual 'intended explanation' isn't quite apparent enough for my liking
2:40 PM <•barredowl> cybersqyd: agreed.
2:40 PM <red3> cybersqyd: I disagree with all your points, but I can see how someone could like it.
2:40 PM <•Calibri_Bold> mloa
2:40 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan I mean, most of my points for liking it are subjective ;p
2:40 PM <•barredowl> hippo is generally good at constructing atmospheres, and this was no exception
2:40 PM all of my points are subjective
2:41 PM <red3> Y'all really haven't figured out a mathematical equation to determine if something is good or not? Smh.
2:41 PM <•barredowl> objectively bad piece, 1/10
2:42 PM <red3> Does anyone else have a point they'd like to make?
2:42 PM <•barredowl> anyway, i think that's gonna cut it for this discussion. does anyone want to get their final word out?
2:42 PM <BlueJones> Like, I enjoyed some parts of it but on a whole I was sort of left with... dissatisfaction on the why. I can certainly see the creepy side of it when its put more into context but with the crucial pin for me to go "AHA! It was X!" it doesn't do it for me
2:42 PM <•barredowl> red3: beat me to it :|
2:42 PM <•cybersqyd> morgan I use the word length metric; where I only upvote if the average length of a word in the piece is between 4 and 7 letters
2:42 PM <•barredowl> BlueJones: can definitely see that.
2:43 PM i think i've exhausted all my points on that. i think it is a generally great piece.
2:44 PM so, y'all wanna take a quick break before jumping into michael the killer?
2:44 PM <SharpEmbrace> FeelingGoodMan very strong construction of mystery; too subtle for my liking
2:44 PM <•barredowl> oh whoops
2:45 PM