# Pastebin XcQz5MJf
6:18 PM <•Mood4food77> Also everyone flips a poo when something negative is said
6:19 PM <•Mood4food77> Its unpopular yea but jeez, you'd think it be the 2nd coming of satan sometimes 
6:19 PM <•Cynt|Wk> ^ that's me and items circa 2008
6:21 PM <•Mood4food77> I still want to know what they can add besides jank
6:22 PM <•Cynt|Wk> 'cause I haven't said that a thousand times before?
6:22 PM <•Cynt|Wk> Should I just write this down in notepad and save it somewhere so I can copy/paste?
6:22 PM <•Mood4food77> Maybe
6:23 PM <•Mood4food77> Still not going to make sense
6:24 PM <•Gespenst> Mood
6:25 PM <•Gespenst> You're arguing with a guy that thinks an environment in which a basic attack at any time blowing up in your face is a good thing.
6:25 PM <•Mood4food77> I know
6:25 PM <•Mood4food77> It happened against manie
6:25 PM <•Mood4food77> He whiffed a smash move
6:25 PM <•Mood4food77> I went to punish 
6:25 PM <•Mood4food77> Something went boom
6:25 PM <•Mood4food77> We both died 
6:26 PM ⇐ •Chunnydoof quit (~Chundalfr@PSI-60DED1F5.cpe.cableone.net) Quit: Bye
6:26 PM <•Cynt|Wk> here we go loop-de-loop
6:26 PM → •Chunnydoof (voiced) joined  
6:26 PM <•Mood4food77> Because whatever argument you bring up for that scenario
6:26 PM <•Mood4food77> Is assinine
6:27 PM <•Mood4food77> And does nothing to help the case for items
6:27 PM <•Cynt|Wk> like po said, I'm gonna need charts and graphs to point this shit out
6:27 PM <•Gespenst> Cynt's understanding of appropriate risk-reward is "a risk exists, and a reward exists."
6:27 PM <•Mood4food77> No chart will helo you there
6:27 PM <•Mood4food77> Help*
6:27 PM <•Gespenst> The concept of the risk matching the reward is completely lost on him.
6:27 PM <•Mood4food77> Should i have not gone for the punish?
6:27 PM <•Mood4food77> There was nothing there when i started attacking
6:27 PM <•Cynt|Wk> what I'm saying is not that you should not have gone for it
6:27 PM <•Mood4food77> It appeared inbetween hits
6:28 PM <•Mood4food77> He was at 120
6:28 PM <•Mood4food77> Im cloud
6:28 PM <•Cynt|Wk> just evaluating the clock when you were deciding to go for it and weighing the risk
6:28 PM <•Mood4food77> So dont go for it
6:28 PM <•Gespenst> See, right on cue.
6:28 PM <•Mood4food77> Fucking fantastic 
6:28 PM <•Gespenst> What did I tell you, Mood?
6:28 PM <•Mood4food77> Items are balanced
6:28 PM <•Mood4food77> \o/
6:29 PM <•Mood4food77> He was at 120
6:29 PM <•Mood4food77> I wasnt letting him live after his mistake
6:29 PM <•Cynt|Wk> look, you already have the answers in your head before you ask the question, so what's the point in me arguing?
6:29 PM <•Cynt|Wk> you won't see it any other way
6:29 PM <•Mood4food77> Because i want a legitimate argument that actually can defend items
6:29 PM <•Gespenst> Pot calling the kettle black, there.
6:29 PM <•Mood4food77> And that
6:29 PM <•Mood4food77> ThAT
6:29 PM <•Mood4food77> Doesnt work
6:29 PM <•Cynt|Wk> you don't like the argument
6:29 PM <•Cynt|Wk> that's all
6:30 PM <•Cynt|Wk> tough shit
6:30 PM <•Mood4food77> Because its bad
6:30 PM <•Gespenst> Because it's flawed from the core.
6:30 PM <•Cynt|Wk> no, because you can't wrap your head around it
6:30 PM <•Mood4food77> Look at the scenario
6:30 PM <•Gespenst> Lol
6:30 PM <•Mood4food77> He's at 120%
6:30 PM <•Mood4food77> Im at about 100
6:30 PM <•Mood4food77> I have rage
6:30 PM <•Cynt|Wk> you're looking at the scenario from a point of view that has no items
6:30 PM <•Gespenst> The "you're just not as enlightened" defense.
6:30 PM <•Mood4food77> He whiffed an fsmash
6:30 PM <•Mood4food77> What are my options to punish him
6:30 PM <•Mood4food77> And make the punish worth it
6:30 PM <•Mood4food77> He was bayo btw
6:31 PM <•Mood4food77> Items or no items
6:31 PM <•Cynt|Wk> you're self fulfilling here
6:31 PM <•Mood4food77> What is my option
6:31 PM <•Mood4food77> Stop avoiding kt
6:31 PM <•Mood4food77> Just answer the question
6:31 PM <•Gespenst> Classic Cynt intellectual dishonesty.
6:31 PM <•Mood4food77> What option should i have done
6:31 PM <•Cynt|Wk> avoiding what exactly? Giving you options you don't like?
6:31 PM <•david> An item won't blow up if you don't hit it
6:31 PM <•david> Just bait
6:31 PM <•david> Like witch time
6:31 PM <•Cynt|Wk> you force yourself into these situations
6:32 PM <•Mood4food77> I already baited him
6:32 PM <•Cynt|Wk> and then go "why?!?"
6:32 PM <•Mood4food77> I made him whiff the fsmash
6:32 PM <•Mood4food77> Why shoudl i bait back
6:32 PM <•Gespenst> "You force yourself into these situations?"
6:32 PM <•Mood4food77> I did
6:32 PM <•Gespenst> Is this guy fucking serious?
6:32 PM <•Mood4food77> I put him in the scenario so that he thought he got me and i made him miss a very laggy move
6:32 PM <•david> For it to blow up would require action
6:32 PM <•david> Like witch time
6:32 PM <•Cynt|Wk> and you picked a bad time to do it if you don't like the outcome
6:32 PM <•david> See balanced
6:33 PM <•Mood4food77> A bad time
6:33 PM <•Cynt|Wk> clock
6:33 PM <•Cynt|Wk> watch it
6:33 PM <•Mood4food77> Yes
6:33 PM <•Cynt|Wk> for fuck's sake watch it
6:33 PM <•Mood4food77> I used wario
6:33 PM <•Mood4food77> I did
6:33 PM <•Gespenst> And there's the flaw in the whole thing.
6:33 PM <•david> Ges stop with the ad hominems please
6:33 PM <•Mood4food77> Watch the clock
6:33 PM <•Cynt|Wk> people can do it watching for Luma's return
6:33 PM <•Cynt|Wk> you can do it with items
6:33 PM <•Mood4food77> Its different
6:33 PM <•Mood4food77> Waft and luma are constant
6:33 PM <•Mood4food77> When the time is up
6:33 PM <•Mood4food77> You know what you get
6:33 PM <•Cynt|Wk> why, 'cause there's only a 4 second variation instead of absolute?
6:33 PM <•Mood4food77> With an item
6:34 PM <•Cynt|Wk> that's what we call "risk"
6:34 PM <•Mood4food77> When the time is up, whats it going to be
6:34 PM <•Mood4food77> Why add this risk to something so trivial
6:34 PM <•Mood4food77> I went for the kill
6:34 PM <•Mood4food77> Which is what i shouldve done
6:34 PM <•Mood4food77> Ask anyone
6:34 PM <•Mood4food77> Even scrubs
6:34 PM <•Mood4food77> They all would say go for the kill
6:34 PM <•Cynt|Wk> and you took that risk knowing (or at least you SAY you were knowing) that the possibility could occur
6:34 PM <•Mood4food77> The 2% chance of it happening
6:35 PM <•Mood4food77> Or whatever percent are items
6:35 PM <•Mood4food77> I dont even knkw what explosed
6:35 PM <•Mood4food77> Exploded since it appeared inbetween hits
6:35 PM <•Cynt|Wk> your opponent took that chance attacking and leaving themselves open if they whiffed
6:35 PM <•Mood4food77> What the fuck kind of logic is that
6:35 PM <•Cynt|Wk> ...why am I dragged into this loop of retardation again?
6:35 PM <•Mood4food77> Because its stupid reasoning
6:35 PM <•Mood4food77> Like
6:36 PM <•Mood4food77> Im trying to understand what reasoning he wiuld have to whiff a laggy move
6:36 PM <•Mood4food77> Outside of thinking, im going to hit this
6:36 PM <•Mood4food77> And i punished accordingly only to have it literally blow up ib my face
6:36 PM <•Mood4food77> I lost the scenario he lost because of rng
6:37 PM <•Cynt|Wk> there's no point in this. As I said this morning, this obviously cannot be discussed properly with words alone.
6:37 PM <•Mood4food77> Like i said before
6:37 PM <•Mood4food77> Any argument you pull up with items
6:37 PM <•Mood4food77> Will not do anything to make them look good in a case similar to the one i described
6:37 PM <•Mood4food77> Unless you bam those kind of items
6:37 PM <•Mood4food77> Which makes the entire point moot
6:38 PM <•Mood4food77> Its a fighting game
6:38 PM <•Mood4food77> We dont want rng
6:38 PM <•Cynt|Wk> and what I'm saying is you're approaching the scenario completely backwards
6:38 PM <•Mood4food77> Items are rng no matter how you put it
6:38 PM <•Mood4food77> How is it completely backwards
6:38 PM <•Cynt|Wk> see, that's opinion there
6:38 PM <•Mood4food77> In what fucking world is it backwards
6:38 PM <•Cynt|Wk> YOU don't like rng, therefore it shouldn't be
6:38 PM <•Gespenst> More strawmen.
6:38 PM <•Mood4food77> Its a fighting game
6:39 PM <•Cynt|Wk> ...your point?
6:39 PM <•Gespenst> It's this particular implementation of RNG that's bad, not RNG itself.
6:39 PM <•Mood4food77> Why should there be a random element that i can die at random
6:39 PM <•Mood4food77> You should die for 2 reasons alone
6:39 PM <•Mood4food77> You fucked up
6:39 PM <•Mood4food77> Or i got the kill
6:39 PM <•Mood4food77> Thats it
6:39 PM <•Cynt|Wk> because that's manipulabl--- no, I'm done. This is going around and around again and I'm gonna start pukin' coathangers again.
6:40 PM <•Mood4food77> Not some random bomb dropping in place because i went for the hardest punish possible
6:40 PM <•Mood4food77> Because your argument sucks
6:40 PM <•Mood4food77> They have specific and timed spawn points
6:40 PM <•Mood4food77> I get that
6:41 PM <•Mood4food77> But what items spawns is entirely random and where it spawns is entirely random
6:41 PM <•Cynt|Wk> if you get that, then your only remaining argument is "I don't like that"
6:41 PM <•Cynt|Wk> which is fine
6:41 PM <•Cynt|Wk> but "I don't like that" <> "they have no place"
6:41 PM <•Mood4food77> I dont like randomly exploding for making the right read
6:41 PM <•Mood4food77> G&ws hammer and peachs turnip are rng
6:42 PM <•Mood4food77> Bit they only occur when they perform the move
6:42 PM <•Mood4food77> This is controllable rng
6:42 PM <•Mood4food77> Which is fine
6:42 PM <•Mood4food77> Its not ideal, but its fine since the player had to do something to cause it
6:42 PM <•Cynt|Wk> and I'm telling you that there is much more control than you conceive of item rng
6:42 PM <•Cynt|Wk> but you can't see that
6:42 PM <•Mood4food77> A bomb dropping inbetween my fsmash on a punish
6:42 PM <•Cynt|Wk> all you see is the worst case scenario and don't know how to plan around it
6:43 PM <•Gespenst> You can't control anything with items, only optimize your reactions to it.
6:43 PM <•Mood4food77> What control do i have over item rng
6:43 PM <•Gespenst> There's a key difference.
6:43 PM <•Mood4food77> Please 
6:43 PM <•Mood4food77> Enlighten me
6:43 PM — •Cynt|Wk facepalms
6:43 PM <•Mood4food77> What action can i make to make a fire flower appear
6:43 PM <•Cynt|Wk> nope, done, this is getting nowhere
6:43 PM <•Mood4food77> Right next to me
6:43 PM <•Mood4food77> Then its not controllable rng
6:44 PM <•Mood4food77> I can play around it sure
6:44 PM <•Mood4food77> But that adds another element i have to fight
6:44 PM <•Mood4food77> Its getting somewhere cynt
6:44 PM <•Mood4food77> You just cant show me why items have a place 
6:44 PM <•Mood4food77> You always have to go worst case scenario when defending something
6:45 PM <•Gespenst> Because whenever there's too much pushback he backs out and acts smug.
6:45 PM <•Mood4food77> "Whats the risk with this medication"
6:45 PM <•Mood4food77> Heart attack
6:45 PM <•Mood4food77> You have to go there
6:45 PM <•Mood4food77> You cant be like, but it cures the cold
6:45 PM <•Mood4food77> Ill get over the cold a lot better thank 
6:46 PM <•Mood4food77> Than a heart attack
6:46 PM <•Mood4food77> Your defense is "calculate the risk" which we are
6:46 PM <•Mood4food77> And a lot of dealing with the risk is "dont attack or you might explode"
6:47 PM <•Mood4food77> Please, enlighten me on how to control this
6:47 PM <•WindalfrM> patience and spacing 
6:47 PM <•WindalfrM> 🙇and 🙅
6:47 PM <•david> ^
6:47 PM <•WindalfrM> rise up 
6:47 PM <•david> ^
6:47 PM <•david> Quit crying
6:47 PM <•Mood4food77> Patience and spacing
6:47 PM <•Mood4food77> Quit crying
6:47 PM <•Mood4food77> Gawd
6:47 PM <•Mood4food77> Such good advice
6:48 PM <•Mood4food77> Its so specific and helpful
6:48 PM <•Mood4food77> Thanks
6:48 PM <•Mood4food77> Guys
6:48 PM <•WindalfrM> mood I'm just Fucking around gawd
6:48 PM <•Mood4food77> Hahahah
6:48 PM <•david> I'm not
6:48 PM <•WindalfrM> 😬
6:48 PM <•Mood4food77> I know
6:49 PM <•Mood4food77> Fuck you david
6:49 PM <•david> Spacing and patience
6:49 PM <•Mood4food77> <3
6:49 PM <•Mood4food77> Answer to everything
6:49 PM <•Mood4food77> I mean
6:49 PM <•WindalfrM> 👬gay
6:49 PM <•Mood4food77> That isnt what competitive smash is about or anything
6:49 PM <•david> Where's that charmander gif
6:49 PM <•david> Cynt?
6:49 PM <•WindalfrM> 👉👌
6:49 PM <•david> Cause that's what's going on
6:49 PM <•WindalfrM> god I'm bored 
6:49 PM <•david> Lol
6:50 PM <•Mood4food77> I think i scared cynt off
6:50 PM <•WindalfrM> good
6:50 PM <•Gespenst> Pussy
6:50 PM <•Mood4food77> Haha
6:50 PM <•Mood4food77> I just want a good answer and i still havent gotten it
6:50 PM <•Gespenst> Because he doesn't have one.
6:51 PM <•WindalfrM> ^
6:51 PM <•Gespenst> The only good answer is "I just want items because I think they're fun," or "I just want items because I'm the worst player on SRK and they make up for my deficiencies."
6:51 PM <•Gespenst> That's personal shit you can't refute.
6:52 PM <•Gespenst> But don't try to act like they're some format that actually makes the game better.
6:52 PM <•Mood4food77> Im not going that low
6:52 PM <•Mood4food77> I want an actual response to how items can help
6:53 PM <•WindalfrM> ges isn't lying tho
6:53 PM <•WindalfrM> 🙅
6:53 PM <•Mood4food77> All ive gotten is "you have to calculate the risk"