# Pastebin Ph49MXDO

1:16 PM <~barredowl> so first impressions all?
1:16 PM <Penguin> The description is incredible.
1:16 PM <Greyve> IMO, it's brilliant.
1:16 PM <+cybersqyd> I find it a touch underwhelming
1:17 PM <red3> The hidden text ruins a lot of the mystery.
1:17 PM <~barredowl> it is a little underwhelming, i can see that.
1:17 PM <~barredowl> i think the hidden text really flavors this piece, to be honest.
1:17 PM <~barredowl> adds a little dimension to the piece
1:17 PM <Penguin> I agree with red, I personally enjoyed it more before I read the hidden text
1:17 PM <+cybersqyd> Like, because it's so heavily redacted and the actual scp is completely uncharacterised, it feels like it really doesn't get your brain juices thinking about the horror?
1:17 PM <~barredowl> but personally, i feel like at some parts this skip felt too reliant on the hidden text
1:17 PM <+cybersqyd> But idk, it's possible I'm just too familiar with it?
1:18 PM <+cybersqyd> The hidden text gives it some of the character it's really lacking
1:18 PM <Greyve> the hidden text feels more
1:18 PM <Greyve> how to say
1:18 PM <Greyve> descriptive.
1:18 PM <+cybersqyd> yeah
1:18 PM <+cybersqyd> it's almost poetic?
1:18 PM <Greyve> without it there is certainly less substance
1:18 PM <Greyve> (it is a poem lol)
1:18 PM <red3> The horror is more buried under the mystery of what's actually happening. It gives all of the surrounding imagery of the anomaly, but not the anomaly itself.
1:18 PM <+cybersqyd> yeah
1:18 PM <Penguin> cybersqyd: Yeah, I read it as a poem
1:18 PM <~barredowl> it doesn't really delve that much into the actual trauma that 231-7 experiences, which is kinda a shame?
1:18 PM <+cybersqyd> I think it's more obviously a poem when it's taken out of the context of it being hidden text
1:19 PM <~barredowl> i mean, i don't know how you would remedy that exactly
1:19 PM <@Calibri_Bold> red3: Quite honestly, I'd say that's something I wish other articles touched on.
1:19 PM <+cybersqyd> barredowl, yeah. I think 231-7 being uncharacterised feels...like a missing opportunity?
1:19 PM <~barredowl> given that it's part of the foundation's mission to make this anomaly as hopeless as can be
1:19 PM <@Calibri_Bold> We don't actually know /what/ the anomaly is.
1:19 PM <Greyve> I think that's a stylistic choice.
1:19 PM <+cybersqyd> Greyve, what is?
1:20 PM <Greyve> Reading through, so much is left intentionally vague that it definitely feels the vagueness IS the story.
1:20 PM <~barredowl> the anomaly not being described that much?
1:20 PM <+cybersqyd> yeah
1:20 PM <+cybersqyd> It's definitely a piece that's trying to make you imagine the Foundation doing horrible things rather than just telling you it is
1:20 PM <@Calibri_Bold> I have to admire it, honestly.
1:20 PM <Penguin> barredowl, cybersqyd: I disagree. I feel like her lack of characterization leads itself to the horror. It really makes the imagination run wild, and only in the dicrection of:bad
1:20 PM <+cybersqyd> But imo it leaves too much up to the imagination?
1:20 PM <Greyve> Which is certainly original.
1:20 PM <~barredowl> it does leave quite a bit to the imagination, just on the brink of being obnoxious
1:20 PM <Greyve> maybe
1:21 PM <Greyve> to be fair 087 does it better.
1:21 PM <+cybersqyd> Penguin, do you not think that really emphasising how she's just like, a normal kid would help here?
1:21 PM <Greyve> But 087 is pure horror, while 231 is more ethical
1:21 PM <@Calibri_Bold> I think that had anyone else tried this, we would end up with something a lot less well-done, something like another 166.
1:21 PM <~barredowl> Penguin: yeah, i do think that outright giving detail about things left unanswered would certainly spill on the piece
1:21 PM <~barredowl> *spoil the piece
1:21 PM <~barredowl> to some extent, at least
1:22 PM — Greyve nods.
1:22 PM <+cybersqyd> yeah
1:22 PM <+cybersqyd> I definitely think it's got a narrow tightrope to walk between telling too much and not enough
1:22 PM <@Calibri_Bold> Did any of you read "Dust and Blood" as well?
1:22 PM <Greyve> iirc, it's the ORIGINAL piece questioning the ethics of the Foundation
1:22 PM <@Calibri_Bold> cybersqyd: Agreed.
1:22 PM <Penguin> cybersqyd: In a way it does, but doesn't. It redacts her being human, her age, everything. It feels like something someone would write to say: Not my fault
1:22 PM <~barredowl> there's a lot just ingrained into the text itself where some bumps can't be kneaded out
1:22 PM <~barredowl> like 110-montauk being unexplained
1:23 PM <+cybersqyd> Penguin, yeah. it feels very accurate for a document you want to give to someone who has to do stuff where you don't want them to question why
1:23 PM <~barredowl> C_B: i didn't, unfortunately.
1:23 PM <+cybersqyd> but, to me, questioning why is the point of this?
1:23 PM <Greyve> Penguin: that's exactly how I see it.
1:23 PM <Greyve> I've heard 231 described as a "love letter to redaction", but I think it's more of an elegant dance between redaction and ethics.
1:24 PM <Penguin> ^
1:24 PM <~barredowl> i think it's a story of the foundation trying to save face while doing something incredibly immoral
1:24 PM <+cybersqyd> yeah
1:24 PM <@Calibri_Bold> barredowl: That's an interesting idea, yeah.
1:24 PM <~barredowl> so let's talk about the conprocs/personnel requirements. what, exactly, do you think's going on with 110-montauk?
1:25 PM <~barredowl> not what 110-montauk /is/, but what it /means/.
1:25 PM <~barredowl> like, what's up with the different modes of transportation and all
1:25 PM <~barredowl> ?
1:25 PM <Greyve> Right.
1:25 PM <Penguin> That it's again, to get as much blood off the foundations hands.
1:26 PM <@Calibri_Bold> ^
1:26 PM <Penguin> To make it so noone they don't want there, is there.
1:26 PM <@Calibri_Bold> They want this to be kept quiet.
1:26 PM <+cybersqyd> I think also it's security theatre
1:26 PM <Greyve> I think it's also like
1:26 PM <+cybersqyd> they don't want the people doing the operation to know *where* she is
1:26 PM <Greyve> The more you reveal, the more human she is.
1:26 PM <~barredowl> i think something about this is about willingly inflicting as much pain as possible on 231-7 to some extent
1:26 PM <+cybersqyd> yeah
1:26 PM <~barredowl> you don't see anybody else's faces, you're completely devoted to the task at hand
1:26 PM <Greyve> So the point is to make her as inhuman as possible, rend her as a threat.
1:27 PM <+cybersqyd> yeah
1:27 PM <red3> I think it's less about saving face and more about utterly indoctrinating the staff working there so they don't care about the morality of the action itself, only that it helps the Foundation.
1:27 PM <+cybersqyd> to the point where showing any sympathy towards her is grounds for dismissal
1:27 PM <~barredowl> red3: that's an interesting take.
1:27 PM <Penguin> I mean, yeah. The whole thing is that she's pregnant with the scarlet king, and that if she gives birth it's game over.
1:27 PM <red3> The reference to Axis II disorders, having no significant relationships, scoring high in obedience.
1:27 PM <+cybersqyd> yeah
1:28 PM <~barredowl> maybe it has something to do with projection - when you realize this person is a human, maybe 110-montauk falters
1:28 PM <~barredowl> when you sympathize, you're done for
1:28 PM <+cybersqyd> maybe
1:28 PM <+cybersqyd> i think it's more personal?
1:28 PM <Greyve> that's how I headcanon it, actually.
1:28 PM <Penguin> I think it's both.
1:28 PM <+cybersqyd> if you realise the person is human, you no longer want to do 110-montauk
1:28 PM <Greyve> There's a tale somewhere where 110-montauk is just reading a bedtime story.
1:29 PM <+cybersqyd> .s fear alone
1:29 PM <Penguin> Like, it's hard to do something you know is wrong, even if you have to
1:29 PM <@Secretary_Helen> cybersqyd: Fear Alone (Rating: +746. Written 5 years ago By: djkaktus) - http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/fear-alone
1:29 PM <red3> Well, let's just keep this with 231 itself.
1:29 PM <+cybersqyd> (I was gonna link it later but greyve brought it up so)
1:29 PM <Greyve> I think it has to do with dehumanization, and having a view about the Scarlet King as a monster embedded in humanity.
1:29 PM <+cybersqyd> yeah
1:29 PM <~barredowl> > SCP-231 is to be contained within a soundproof holding cell, adjacent to holding cells for six Class D Personnel assigned for the purposes of Procedure 110-Montauk
1:29 PM <~barredowl> hmm, it's specifically stated that it has to be adjacent to d-class holding cells
1:30 PM <~barredowl> that's a neat tidbit
1:30 PM <+cybersqyd> presumably that's for convenience?
1:30 PM <+cybersqyd> hmm
1:30 PM <red3> And to not be able to partially memorize the layout of the Site.
1:30 PM <~barredowl> oh, that's much simpler than what i was thinking
1:30 PM <+cybersqyd> i wonder if the sound-proofing extends to the d-class
1:30 PM <Greyve> Also 6 exactly.
1:30 PM <Greyve> That's not a coincidence.
1:30 PM <+cybersqyd> 6 is weird
1:30 PM <~barredowl> > Six Class D Personnel are to be assigned to SCP-231-7 each month for the purposes of carrying out Procedure 110-Montauk.
1:30 PM <~barredowl> that's why
1:30 PM <~barredowl> 6.
1:31 PM <+cybersqyd> hm, i was assuming the d-class died
1:31 PM <+cybersqyd> but they don't
1:31 PM <~barredowl> > Violent criminals are not to be used for this purpose due to the possibility of accidental fatality during the 110-Montauk process
1:31 PM <~barredowl> this is something interesting, too
1:31 PM <+cybersqyd> yeah
1:31 PM <~barredowl> maybe this is meant to traumatize both parties involved, as violent criminals would be a little more callous?
1:31 PM <Greyve> I mean, 7 has to do with the Scarlet King, so maybe the 6 are like,  replacements in spirit for the other 6?
1:31 PM <red3> Why include "violent criminals", when it specifically states the possibility of "accidental fatality". If it's accidental, then the person being violent prior to this doesn't matter.
1:32 PM <~barredowl> violent criminals might easily kill 231-7 or something like that, maybe?
1:32 PM <Greyve> I imagine it has to do with a projection of internals, sort of like how "it has to be terrible"
1:32 PM <+cybersqyd> I think perhaps it's the opposite
1:32 PM <~barredowl> because they're trying to make 231-7 suffer, but not die, as that means game over?
1:32 PM <+cybersqyd> 231-7 is more likely to accidentally kill the d-class if they're violent criminals?
1:33 PM <Greyve> interesting take on it.
1:33 PM <Greyve> I think the author meant for it to be the other way around, still, but could be.
1:33 PM <+cybersqyd> yeah
1:33 PM <~barredowl> i'm not sure of that? i thought 110-montauk rendered 231-7 unable to fight back or something, but i'm not sure
1:34 PM <Greyve> I also want to bring up the amnestication.
1:34 PM <~barredowl> > Feeding will be carried out twice per day through feeding tube by approved medical personnel who have not taken the Hippocratic Oath.
1:34 PM <~barredowl> huh.
1:34 PM <Greyve> It definitely has a sort of mental aspect to it, since her experience impacts the effectiveness.
1:34 PM <Penguin> Maybe she's not human.
1:34 PM <+cybersqyd> yeah
1:35 PM <~barredowl> i think this is because 110-montauk may be trying to alleviate guilt and encourage callousness, and a doctor who had taken the hippocratic oath might experience guilt?
1:35 PM <+cybersqyd> Well, not just that: they'd be obligated to ease her suffering
1:35 PM <Greyve> Maybe because vows have an affect on it.
1:35 PM <Greyve> what cyber said
1:36 PM <red3> Maybe keeping her alive is actively harming her. She is a conduit for the Scarlet King, so keeping her alive is actively increasing her pain.
1:36 PM <~barredowl> huh, that's interesting
1:36 PM <Greyve> I think since vows are a mental thing...it's entirely located inside your head, that you have to follow the rule
1:36 PM <@Calibri_Bold> Or maybe simply because the Oath is a human concept that even the Foundation feels obligated to comply too.
1:36 PM <~barredowl> C_B: perhaps, i can get down with that
1:36 PM <@Calibri_Bold> It's like how we have laws for funeral processions and pulling over for them.
1:36 PM <+cybersqyd> well, it'd be foundation doctors her but yeah
1:37 PM <+cybersqyd> like the whole thing is about having people who won't hesitate to do cruel things, and the hippocratic oath is one reason someone might
1:37 PM <Greyve> but then again, 231 is an old article
1:37 PM <~barredowl> > During Procedure 110-Montauk, at least one Security Clearance 4/231 staff member must monitor the procedure by camera at all times, although the sound may be turned off if the vocalizations of SCP-231-7 become too distressing.
1:37 PM <red3> Let's try to bring this to more of a broader topic about the article, because right now we're just speculating about what 110-Mantauk could be. That's not really helpful to understanding why it's a good article.
1:37 PM <~barredowl> so why do you think somebody has to watch it at all times
1:37 PM <Greyve> in that day and age, SCP could be imagined as a very ethical government organization.
1:37 PM <~barredowl> red3: yeah, i think that's a good idea
1:37 PM <Greyve> red3: agreed.
1:38 PM <~barredowl> so about the classic status of 231. why do you think this article had such a supposed impact on the wiki as a whole?
1:38 PM <Greyve> Ethics.
1:38 PM <+cybersqyd> it's a classic piece of shock horror
1:39 PM <Penguin> Along with the start of the conversation about what the foundation did with things like this, children who need to be contained.
1:40 PM <red3> This goes really hard into "describing everything else about the anomaly except for the anomaly". Like when a person gets possessed by a demon, but it's communicated by removing all of the clues that could point to it being demonic possession, so you're only left with the effects.
1:40 PM <+cybersqyd> one of the few where the foundation are the source of the horror, and not the scp
1:40 PM <~barredowl> i see a lot of people commenting on the use of redaction as particularly influential?
1:40 PM <@Calibri_Bold> I think something big was that up until now, SCP had been about exploring interesting objects and anomalies. In a sense, the Foundation itself didn't even matter, they just used it to tell the story.
1:40 PM <Greyve> It's the original piece to expand the Foundation beyond just scary monsters and the like into something where ETHICS is important.
1:40 PM <+cybersqyd> yeah
1:40 PM <Greyve> Furthermore, it does this all while holding onto a lovecraftian premise.
1:40 PM <~barredowl> it does delve into an interesting topic, that being the ethics of the foundation. because a lot of early skips have the foundation as a primordial blob of force.
1:40 PM <+cybersqyd> it's kinda a shame there's no mention of the ethics committee in it
1:40 PM <red3> It also places less emphasis on the SCP itself, but more on the implications of the SCP.
1:40 PM <Greyve> i mean, it's an old skip.
1:40 PM <red3> The Ethics Committee didn't exist back then.
1:40 PM <+cybersqyd> oh yeah I mean, I get why there isn't
1:40 PM <Greyve> If it were written more recently, it wouldn't be messages from the o5 but rather the ethcom.
1:40 PM <+cybersqyd> hm
1:40 PM <+cybersqyd> I think it'd still be O5?
1:40 PM <~barredowl> the formatting and the story really draws attention to the implications and the subtext
1:40 PM <+cybersqyd> If I was writing it, they'd be O5, but there'd be mention of like, the ethics committee tenuously agreeing to it
1:40 PM <Greyve> most notably, redaction as a mechanism to tell a story.
1:40 PM <+cybersqyd> yeah
1:40 PM <~barredowl> like, all the details about the description are censored heavily, mostly conprocs/addendum-focused
1:41 PM <~barredowl> so it draws attention to the subtext
1:41 PM <Greyve> redaction before this was mostly just used for clinical tone and/or unnecessary details.
1:41 PM <Greyve> But with this, redaction becomes a narrative device.
1:42 PM <~barredowl> yeah, moreso to mirror the actual classification process governmental documents go through
1:42 PM <~barredowl> now, those redactions are used to some effect
1:42 PM <~barredowl> i'd say this article really breaks the mold in that respect
1:42 PM <Greyve> exactly.
1:42 PM <Greyve> Even today redactions aren't necessarily used so effectively.
1:43 PM <Penguin> 100%
1:43 PM <red3> I love the breakdown of information in the ConProcs versus the Description. The former asks a ton of questions, but the latter refuses to answer them, leading the reader to try and piece together the information themselves.
1:43 PM <Greyve> In fact, it's so well defined, trying to do something similar wouldn't be seen as a homage - it would be seen as copying 231.
1:43 PM <~barredowl> yeah, the structure of the article really helps funnel you into what the hell is happening
1:43 PM <Greyve> red3: yeah.
1:43 PM <@Calibri_Bold> I love seeing the ConProcs used to this effect.
1:44 PM <+cybersqyd> Yeah, I think it does ConProcs really nicely
1:44 PM <Penguin> Nowadays, most redactions are just dates/locations/names. It's much more boring
1:44 PM <red3> Especially since ConProcs are such a dry part of the article, this manages to make it much more entertaining.
1:44 PM <+cybersqyd> hm, i think tbf that's more that a lot of folk don't really know what to do with them
1:45 PM <Greyve> It really uses the SCP format perfectly.
1:45 PM <@Calibri_Bold> I think a lot of the time, people just see the ConProcs as that thing they need to get through before they can actually write "the good stuff".
1:45 PM <+cybersqyd> (and the answer is 'hint at weird shit'
1:45 PM <+cybersqyd> yeah
1:45 PM <Penguin> ^^^
1:45 PM <~barredowl> yeah, often times conprocs are really perfunctory for me, other times they're a good tool to hook the reader in
1:45 PM <~barredowl> so what in this article do you think is applicable to writing in the modern wiki era?
1:46 PM <+cybersqyd> The whole, starting hook thing is super good
1:46 PM <~barredowl> i would personally say the attention given to the foundation's inner workings and how it reacts to this specific anomaly is really influential
1:46 PM <Penguin> The "format break" is really interesting, and I wish there was more of it.
1:46 PM <~barredowl> it shuns away what the anomaly is in lieu of what it means
1:46 PM <+cybersqyd> yeah; I think the idea of the Foundation being the source of horror is always fun to play with
1:47 PM <Penguin> Where it isn't just the basic conprocs, description, addenda
1:47 PM <~barredowl> i mean, the foundation is ripe with interesting situations to think about
1:47 PM <~barredowl> and that's where the conprocs really shine for me
1:47 PM <+cybersqyd> yeah
1:47 PM <~barredowl> because they try to answer what happens when the foundation is confronted with having to inflict horrific violence and assault for the greater good
1:48 PM <red3> I think one of the reasons that ConProcs are skipped over so often is that articles have seemingly shifted from being written and read in the context of "it was written by the Foundation" to more "it was written by an author".
1:48 PM <~barredowl> you kinda see a taste of storytelling through the addenda here, but for the most part the meat is in the conprocs/personnel requirements
1:49 PM <Greyve> red3: true.
1:49 PM <~barredowl> red3: exactly. often times, i kinda glaze over when wrting conprocs, unless i think there's something interesting i can put there.
1:50 PM <~barredowl> and this article really pumps up the importance and meaning derived from the conprocs.
1:50 PM <red3> The reason this works today even is that there are hints of the Foundation's influence everywhere. The image is taken down, an addendum was attached before the ConProcs, there are numerous redactions.
1:51 PM <~barredowl> damn, i didn't even think about the image, to be honest
1:51 PM <~barredowl> kinda didn't notice it, lol
1:51 PM <Greyve> exactly. Not too may still use pre-conproc addenda
1:51 PM <Greyve> And the image really sets the tone.
1:51 PM <red3> It's such a great hook. Images themselves are amazing for putting the reader in the correct mindset, and this is one of the best on the Site.
1:51 PM <red3> Site? site.
1:51 PM <~barredowl> yeah, this one has a killer hook. catches you off guard pretty quickly.
1:52 PM <Greyve> the whole article is quite brilliant, actually.
1:52 PM <Greyve> It is one of my absolute favorites.
1:52 PM <Greyve> And the best part...it feels possible.
1:52 PM <~barredowl> yeah, i was expecting not to like this one, but this actually turned out to be a very insightful discussion
1:52 PM <+cybersqyd> hm, it definitely feels very much like in a technical sense, it works really nicely
1:53 PM <+cybersqyd> but idk. there's something about it that doesn't quite click for me?
1:53 PM <red3> The only thing that I really dislike is the hidden text. It recontextualizes a lot of the article and just gives away a lot of the mystery.
1:53 PM <Greyve> Some cult doing that feels very tame in the Foundationverse.
1:53 PM <~barredowl> red3: exactly. the hidden text and the main 231 document feel very disparate.
1:53 PM <+cybersqyd> I don't like hidden text as a gimmick even if in this case, I think it works?
1:54 PM <~barredowl> there are some flaws which i think were looked over, like not really exploring the pain 231-7 experienced, but overall i think this was a very good skip!
1:54 PM <red3> Hidden text only really works when the reader has no idea that there is hidden text in the first place.
1:54 PM <Greyve> i think the hidden text is meh. Doesn't really affect the article too much.
1:54 PM <red3> Like, if they stumble onto the page source for some other reason and discover that it has hidden text.
1:54 PM <red3> Something like 5998 fails in this aspect.
1:54 PM <red3> SCP-5998
1:54 PM <@Secretary_Helen> red3: SCP-5998: Man, Ascendant (Rating: +108. Written 96 days ago By: Cerastes) - http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-5998
1:54 PM <@Calibri_Bold> barredowl: I'm inclined to agree.
1:54 PM <+cybersqyd> i wonder who wrote the hidden text in universe
1:55 PM <Penguin> sorry cerastes
1:55 PM <+cybersqyd> like, did it come from the scarlet king himself?
1:55 PM <~barredowl> perhaps the scarlet king? -\_O_/-
1:55 PM <red3> I'd imagine the Scarlet King. It refers to the girl as "she" instead of "it", eliminating both the girl and the Foundaiton.
1:55 PM <red3> *Foundation.
1:55 PM <+cybersqyd> yeah
1:55 PM <+cybersqyd> I think perhaps a cultist could've done it
1:55 PM <~barredowl> maybe it's what sympathy towards 231-7 produces, in an implicit sort of way? a calling to the scarlet king?
1:56 PM <Greyve> perhaps.
1:56 PM <~barredowl> then again, i might be bringing out my pretentious blowhard there
1:56 PM <Greyve> I still headcanon the SK as a human aspect
1:56 PM <+cybersqyd> yeah
1:56 PM <~barredowl> and that's what the foundation is trying to stop? idk
1:57 PM <~barredowl> so anyway, you think we should call this discussion and take a break before getting into 999, or does anybody have any remaining thoughts?
1:57 PM <Greyve> could be.
1:57 PM <+cybersqyd> i think you're right there
1:57 PM <Greyve> I'm fine with taking a break.
1:57 PM — Penguin flops
1:57 PM <Penguin> Sweepy
1:57 PM <~barredowl> alright
1:57 PM <+cybersqyd> there's a few hints towards there being some kinda...effect that makes folk end up trying to rescue her
1:57 PM <red3> I can see that interpretation. The entire role of the Foundation is to contain things which have sympathetic qualities for the rest of their existence. It does a great job of banging that drum over and over again.
1:57 PM <~barredowl> yeah.