# Pastebin MLsKvuvv 11:13 AM <~barredowl> so. as usual, let's start out with our first impressions of the piece 11:14 AM Fun fact, the "thorn" is a staff in the piece, but that picture is of a hairpin 11:14 AM it is actually made from bone 11:14 AM <%red3> Mm. So I feel like the "reveal" of this thing (as much as it can be, considering how little the Foundation knows) is fairly underwhelming. I liked the tension that was conveyed in one of the previous tales when it mentioned that Ion was coming to do... something big. But that reveal is repeated here in the final interview log, which makes it significantly less underwhelming. 11:14 AM but it's a hairpin 11:14 AM <~barredowl> that's cool 11:14 AM <%red3> Fun fact. 11:14 AM <+cybersqyd> that must've been a nightmare to make 11:15 AM <+cybersqyd> red3: tbf this was posted first iirc 11:15 AM <~barredowl> so i, for one, quite liked this. it had a nice sense of scale to it, and the MTF logs really helped to sell me on the grandeur. 11:15 AM <~barredowl> there were some parts where i sorta didn't feel that, some of which red mentioned. in this regard, the interview log didn't really give the reveal all that much weight. but yeah, still liked it 11:16 AM <+cybersqyd> yeah, the ending has always felt like the weak point of this 11:16 AM I agree with that 11:16 AM I didn't want to reveal too much, just enough 11:16 AM <+cybersqyd> well. also that it relies too much on having folk tell us the thorn is super powerful, and not really it being shown to us? 11:17 AM Honestly, this piece is one of the things that makes Sarkicism fun to write for and inspiring. Example being that MTF Xi-8 is put on the defensive due to the Lodge attacking. The ending is... hard to put what I feel about that. 11:17 AM <+cybersqyd> malyce is probably sick of me saying that tho ;p 11:17 AM <~barredowl> i can see that 11:17 AM I mean, it transformed a dude into something else just by touching it 11:17 AM <%red3> But back to the article, all we really see from the thorn itself is it kind of absorbing a guy and causing him to attack his teammates and absorb them as well. Which could be interesting, having an Akira-esque monster which continues to grow and become more dangerous. But that reveal is bogged down by the fact that the Foundation still have the thorn by the end of the article. If it had been stolen and nobody knew where 11:17 AM <%red3> it was, then that would increase the fear. 11:17 AM <%red3> How many people would be absorbed before the Foundation found it? How large and deadly would this creature become? Questions like that. 11:17 AM <+cybersqyd> Malyce: sure but that's like. standard weird thing fair? It's like 'bad' but it's not 'imminent apocalypse' bad 11:18 AM <%red3> ^ 11:18 AM cybersqyd: Yeah, but the foundation doesn't know that this thing can trigger the apocalypse 11:18 AM <+cybersqyd> yeah 11:18 AM WE know, but the Foundation doesn't 11:19 AM That's part of the difficulty I found writing the whole canon. I know how this will end 11:19 AM <+cybersqyd> mmm 11:19 AM <%red3> Did it show how the thing would trigger the apocalypse in another tale? I'm still kinda unsure on that. 11:19 AM I don't want to straight out say from the begining that Ion returns, kicks the foundation's ass, reworks the entire world into their own image 11:19 AM <+cybersqyd> red3, I believe that's secret insider knowledge 11:20 AM Also, spoiler alert 11:20 AM sorry 11:21 AM <~barredowl> hmm. 11:21 AM <%red3> Mm. This article felt like it was trying to go from Thorn --> ??? --> Ion. I don't know what that middle step is. There's a few hints as to what it could be -- like the creature I mentioned before that was pretty terrifying -- but the fact that the creature dies slows down the escalation of terror. 11:22 AM <%red3> That might be expanded upon in future articles, though. This is the absolute first time we're seeing what the thorn can do. 11:22 AM <%red3> Ignoring the few times where it was mentioned before but not really elaborated on. 11:22 AM The thing was only a part of Ion. It was an impure vessel trying to contain the essence of a god. It's really hard to say that though without giving away the goose too soon 11:23 AM All of the first steps in this fit together in ways that haven't really been revealed yet. 11:23 AM Without the triplets in the Mouth that Hungers, the thorn will always create imperfect vessels. 11:24 AM But no one knows that yet 11:24 AM <%red3> Hmm. 11:24 AM <+cybersqyd> yeah; it feels like these don't quite stand alone as much as they need to work in isolation? 11:25 AM <+cybersqyd> like, once that's established, it feels like this might have a lot more fridge horror to it; as the foundation like, bumbles with this super powerful thing and there's like, the juxtaposition of what we know it can do with them using it? 11:26 AM I've never written a canon like this before, so I'm kinda feeling my way in the dark about what works and what doesn't 11:27 AM <+cybersqyd> yeah 11:27 AM So, these discussions is part of what has been tremendously helpful 11:27 AM <%red3> I don't know how the series ends, so this might not be a problem in the future, but I felt like this should've been introduced earlier. Like, in the beginning of the main arc or in the prologue even. Because it being here at the end of the first arc implies that there's going to be some kind of escalation. 11:27 AM Like I'm getting a clearer image of what is working and what isn't 11:27 AM <%red3> Things have to change. The enemy has to get more powerful so we start to worry that maybe the Foundation won't win this one. 11:27 AM → Popsioak joined (uid397494@frozen.garden) 11:28 AM that's the purpose of Act 2 11:28 AM Act 1 sets the stage, act 2 sets the conflict, act 3 is the conflict. 11:28 AM act 4 is aftermath 11:28 AM <%red3> Mm. Maybe that was the point, but I would've liked things to have gone more quickly. 11:29 AM <%red3> Almost the entirety of Act 1 sets up this Thorn, but we never really see anything interesting, nor does anything happen to it. It makes me feel like we're back at the start of the story again. 11:30 AM <+cybersqyd> that's, not really the case at all though? 11:30 AM <%red3> Like, I'm almost certain that this thing can do much more than we're shown in this article, but I would've liked more of a taste. Does this thing open a portal for Ion to enter our reality? Is it trying to construct a giant creature to destroy humanity? Does it do something completely different? I'm not sure, and I felt like the first arc promised me an answer to that question. 11:30 AM <+cybersqyd> as in, Act 1 is setting up a lot of other pieces that aren't just the thorn 11:31 AM <+cybersqyd> like, the four horsemen 11:31 AM <~barredowl> yeah 11:31 AM <~barredowl> (apologies if i'm not adding much to this: i'm just sorta out of it currently D:) 11:31 AM <%red3> Np 11:32 AM <+cybersqyd> Act 1 is really like, setting up the four key players (the horsemen, the foundation, implications of cotbg); plus the thorn; and with that, we can really see like... what happens? 11:33 AM <+cybersqyd> i got to the end there and then ran out of brain thoughts i have no idea what i was conveying after thorn 11:33 AM <%red3> No, I get what you're saying. 11:33 AM <%red3> There isn't like... an inciting incident, I think is the best term I can use. Even if this entire thing is just the prologue, there has to be a big change to get me interested. And even when it was establishing characters, it was setting up that big change with each leader receiving the letter that Ion was going to be returning soon. 11:34 AM <+cybersqyd> yeah 11:34 AM <%red3> So with the final article, I thought that this was going to just give me a taste of the Thorn before stealing it away and pushing the story forward. It sets a promise that I'll learn more about this thing later on. 11:35 AM <+cybersqyd> yeah, it does feel like Act 1 as a whole suffers a lot from being very "hey this is a thing; we promise it'll be interesting later" 11:35 AM <%red3> But since it doesn't, I feel almost betrayed in a way. I feel entitled to have a hook of some kind to bring me in, and I didn't like this because it didn't give me that hook. 11:36 AM <+cybersqyd> imo thorn of god should've had the four horsemen attempting to steal the thorn 11:36 AM — MalyceGraves nods 11:36 AM But the horsemen are going to succeed 11:36 AM <%red3> I mean, one of them does, don't they? 11:36 AM Yeah, Mother Ieva is ultimately going to steal it and wreck Area 02 in the process 11:37 AM <+cybersqyd> yeah; one of them attempts it 11:37 AM <+cybersqyd> But it feels like having all four there would make this feel more like the pieces have come together to enter play 11:37 AM <~barredowl> just to clarify, the "four horsemen" were most of the people featured in et ecce? 11:37 AM <+cybersqyd> yeah 11:37 AM <%red3> ^ 11:37 AM <~barredowl> cool 11:37 AM <~barredowl> :D 11:38 AM <+cybersqyd> Of course, the problem with it being the four horsemen is that like 11:38 AM <+cybersqyd> either the horsemen win, which is very bad and likely going to really speed up the story a lot 11:38 AM <+cybersqyd> or the horsemen lose, and in turn, their threat disappears 11:39 AM <+cybersqyd> I reckon you could nail a phyrric victory for the foundation where it manages to not make the horsemen seem too weak? 11:39 AM <%red3> I mean, there is a possibility for a middle ground there. Some of the horsemen could win and some could lose, but that would be assuming that each one wants the Thorn for their own reasons and they're not working as a single team. 11:39 AM <+cybersqyd> it feels like they are though 11:39 AM <%red3> Yeah, that's what I thought. 11:40 AM <+cybersqyd> hm 11:40 AM <+cybersqyd> i wonder if you could hit a middle ground where like, one of them attempts to steal it, fails, gets captured and then the other three bust them out? 11:41 AM Although seeing the Horsemen not working simultainously would be more entertaining to read cause some of them are Neo-Sarkics, which iirc aren't known as the most trustworthy of sarkics and most likely try to do something that would reap them a better reward in exchange of discarding the others or doing something the others would disapprove of 11:42 AM <%red3> cybersqyd: Yeah, but then you have the question of "Why didn't they take the Thorn then and there?" If they take it, then we have a case where the story moves too quickly, but if they don't, then the story moves too slowly. 11:42 AM <+cybersqyd> yeah 11:42 AM <%red3> The only way I can see around that would be maybe hold the ones getting questioned in a separate base that doesn't contain the Thorn. 11:42 AM <+cybersqyd> red3, see I was envisaging the foundation being sensible there and storing the captured person in a separate place to the thorn 11:42 AM <%red3> Yo you better get out of my head Sqyd 11:43 AM <+cybersqyd> because like. keeping them in the same place as the thorn feels like a colossally stupid idea 11:43 AM <%red3> Yeah, we posted like the same thing at the exact same time lol 11:43 AM <+cybersqyd> :D 11:43 AM <%red3> So, story-wise, this disappointed me. Writing-wise, though... 11:45 AM <%red3> I felt like the first exploration could easily be shortened by 1/3rd. Cut the opening parts of them exploring the offices, since those ultimately don't reappear in the story and don't have any use besides maybe setting the atmosphere, which can be better achieved in other places. Also, some of the descriptions are a little... bare. I couldn't understand what things looked like or what they did because everything is put 11:45 AM <%red3> together in a confusing way. 11:45 AM <%red3> > The Chalmers entity shrieks again and the masses sprout tendrils of muscle tissue, which reach obscenely towards the team. 11:45 AM <%red3> Here's a good example of the first problem. I don't know what "tendrils of muscle tissue" look like, so I'm stuck imaging a million things that don't quite fit. 11:46 AM <+cybersqyd> kinky 11:46 AM <%red3> > Several ridges of exposed muscle can be seen alternating between three sets of additional breasts, all of which are engorged and dripping a viscous black fluid. 11:46 AM <%red3> And here's a good example of the second problem. I don't know how exposed muscle can "alternate" between breasts, so I'm having a really hard time imagining that. 11:47 AM <%red3> I'm assuming the muscle is moving underneath the flesh? I'm not sure, though. 11:47 AM <+cybersqyd> i assume "muscle ridge, breast, muscle ridge, breast" etc 11:47 AM <%red3> Maybe. Again, the sentence is constructed in a very confusing way. 11:49 AM <%red3> Besides that, the dialogue could tone down the number of cheesy lines a bit. I rolled my eyes more than once reading "Well that timetable's fucked", "And since you asked so nicely, you get point", and "People keep finding shit". 11:50 AM <%red3> It sounds like an MTF composed entirely of clones of myself. And I don't need more hints that I'm an asshole, thank you very much. 11:50 AM — %red3 cries in the corner. 11:50 AM ⇐ BoogeyMobile23 quit (whale.w@tching.boat.tour) Quit: Connection closed for inactivity 11:50 AM <%red3> The rest isn't bad, though. 11:50 AM <%red3> Are there any other thoughts on this? 11:51 AM Not really, I really enjoyed this (That includes the cheesy lines as I am a sucker for those) so its a good ol +1 11:51 AM <+cybersqyd> I...don't have anything 11:51 AM <~barredowl> i don't really have anything to say about this, other than i liked it 11:52 AM <%red3> This is a downvote from me. I've stated all of my reasons already.