# Pastebin LnqK9P6G
11:17 AM <~barredowl> for real this time, first impressions, y'all?
11:17 AM <BlueJones> I already read this tale so its not much of a first impression. However, re-reading this again, I'm glad I gave it my upvote
11:17 AM <+cybersqyd> It feels...a touch unsubstantial to me?
11:17 AM <~barredowl> i thought at points it was a tiny bit aimless and unsubstantial like cyber mentioned
11:18 AM <~barredowl> but i overall enjoyed it some bit
11:18 AM <+cybersqyd> I prefer it as an introduction to a set of tales than as a standalone
11:18 AM <~barredowl> yeah it does have that introduction feel to it
11:19 AM <BlueJones> It was fresh seeing one end of the induction into the Foundation with the use of family bonds
11:19 AM <~barredowl> i think in that sense it's good in leading you into the mechanics of this character?
11:19 AM <~barredowl> like, they have faith in people, somewhat sympathetic and caring
11:19 AM <+cybersqyd> yeah
11:20 AM <SharpEmbrace> my reaction to this is very 'meh'
11:20 AM <~barredowl> the characterization in this is pretty clear
11:20 AM <~barredowl> SharpEmbrace: i sorta had the same response?
11:20 AM <+cybersqyd> yeah there's some nice characterisation here
11:20 AM <+cybersqyd> you get a decent sense of who all these folk are as people
11:20 AM <+cybersqyd> but i think at times, it feels a little much like it's telling us what they're like rather than showing it?
11:20 AM <red3> I don't exactly understand why Cal would make the decision to take up this offer which he had been explicitly told would probably violate his principles without some sort of special reasoning besides money. There's nothing here that explains why Cal made this choice besides just trusting his brother, so I don't get much of a sense of his character for making this decision, which is what this tale is designed to do.
11:21 AM <+cybersqyd> yeah
11:21 AM <~barredowl> there is a lot of telling here
11:21 AM <Hexick> red3: I agree.
11:21 AM <+cybersqyd> I kinda get it; it feels like Cal is a man of faith; and so he's taking his brothers claim on face value
11:22 AM <+cybersqyd> so I think, in some ways, that's an important characterisation
11:22 AM <+cybersqyd> even if it's not really smart decision making
11:23 AM <~barredowl> i'm... not sure honestly
11:23 AM <red3> I guess I can see that somewhat.
11:23 AM <+cybersqyd> But yeah it definitely feels...like this is meant to be a big piece about his decision and it's
11:23 AM <+cybersqyd> really kinda glossed over?
11:23 AM <+cybersqyd> it doesn't feel hard for him or anything?
11:24 AM <+Jak> I think the introductory is an interesting hook. It establishes a scene that's not particularly tied to the Foundation, which I can admire. I also think the interactions between characters a life-like, although there may be some awkward gaps (which goes towards Cal's characterization.) It also provides some mystery on David's personality, and whatever the hell happened with him to lose his hand
11:24 AM <red3> This is a very meh tale. It doesn't do much to try and has a sanitized glaze to everything. There's no conflict besides some glares and Cal stating that his parents don't really like Davey. I would've really liked to see this animosity shown through Cal more in their conversation in order to accentuate the fact that Cal has faith in people. Despite the fact that Davey left the faith and is now outcast from the rest of 
11:24 AM <red3> his family, Cal is willing to put that aside for the fact that he trusts others and believes that Davey has what's best for him at heart.
11:25 AM <red3> Jak: Long post gang.
11:25 AM <BlueJones> I love the characters and their traits through the tone simply by dialogue. And I agree with cyber that I feel like Cal would trust his brother when he says that he won't like the principles of what they do but if he sees what they do, he'd understand it clearly and wouldn't regret doing that taking the job. Plus the setting of the church does describe a bit more about faith in his brother and confidence. However, I 
11:25 AM <BlueJones> will concede that it was glossed over a bit when told its worldwide changing news
11:25 AM <+Jak> red3: :D
11:25 AM <~barredowl> yeah, i can see that
11:25 AM <~barredowl> it's more a slice-of-life if anything, but at the same time the amount of tension in this is kinda... weird?
11:25 AM <+cybersqyd> yeah
11:26 AM <red3> I will say that it does good with the basic elements that it does use. The dialogue is realistic, the descriptions are crystal clear, and I was never confused about what was happening or where the characters were. I just wished that those basic elements were used for something more exciting than just a boring conversation which has way too little conflict for the change that happens to one of the characters afterwords.
11:26 AM <+cybersqyd> yeah I can agree there red3
11:26 AM <~barredowl> i kinda felt myself glazing over at a couple of the dialogue sections
11:27 AM <~barredowl> but i'm left wondering if that's a fault of me or the writing
11:27 AM <~barredowl> so i don't think i could make a sound value judgment on that front
11:27 AM <@Calibri_Bold> Hi hello I’m here.
11:27 AM <~barredowl> oh shit
11:27 AM <@Calibri_Bold> Sorry about that haha
11:27 AM <+cybersqyd> nah, I can see the dialogue sections being somewhat tedious
11:27 AM <~barredowl> we're just in the middle of tearing you to shreds
11:27 AM <@Calibri_Bold> Nice.
11:27 AM <~barredowl> ;p
11:27 AM <+cybersqyd> Hey Cal we're all saying extremely nice things about your work
11:28 AM <+Jak> I think the situation is something that should also be addressed. It's not *supposed* to be something particularly grand or aspiring. I think it was intended to feel a bit more grounded. Simplistic in the terms of "oh yeah, this happened to this character. That leaves room for development." I dont particularly mind the un-exciting aspect of it. I think it helps ground the characters relationship by a lot.
11:28 AM <~barredowl> yeah, a little
11:28 AM <+Jak> Emphasis the familiarity between charactera
11:28 AM <+Jak> FUCK characters*
11:28 AM <+cybersqyd> Jak: see on the one hand, I can agree with you; but on the other hand, just cos something is deliberately un-exciting doesn't excuse it from being un-exciting?
11:28 AM <~barredowl> but at some parts it felt a little bit like the characters were talking to /us/ and not each other?
11:29 AM <~barredowl> which is a problem i face all the time
11:29 AM <+Jak> cybersqyd: that's very true. But I also think looking at it front that angle almost detracts from the characterization? The mood/tone? Although yes, I do agree with you
11:29 AM <red3> Jak: I can kind of agree with that, but there is definitely a line between something being more slice-of-life and something just being completely lifeless due to a lack of conflict, and this crosses that line several times. Sure, somebody could write 100,000 words about a family going through their normal everyday life and it can be great writing, but if there's no tension or conflict, then there's no reason for me to 
11:29 AM <red3> get through the first sentence.
11:29 AM <+Jak> from*
11:30 AM <@Calibri_Bold> Red is very correct.
11:30 AM <~barredowl> i can see that
11:30 AM <+cybersqyd> yeah; I kinda agree here
11:30 AM <@Calibri_Bold> And it’s something that, in retrospect, I should have considered.
11:30 AM <SharpEmbrace> the characters are fine, but they're not engaging enough to make up for the lack of tension
11:30 AM <+cybersqyd> yeah
11:31 AM <+Jak> That's very true. I think something that's influencing it is Cal's background in the first sentence, which opens in a church-setting. My belief is then "Cal's morals and belief inherently go against the Foundation." Which, I feel is a satisfying conflict as it stands
11:31 AM <@Calibri_Bold> I focused on making everything sound good and flow smoothly, but I didn’t consider the premise itself.
11:31 AM <+cybersqyd> Jak: it's a fascinating conflict sure but it doesn't actually ever execute on that conflict
11:31 AM <red3> ^
11:31 AM <+Jak> Perhaps
11:32 AM <+Jak> I can see the point, and I will agree that it lacks somewhat in that regard. Maybe it's just me then, idk 😂
11:32 AM <+cybersqyd> I mean, you're allowed to like something
11:32 AM <red3> cybersqyd: Incorrect.
11:32 AM <+cybersqyd> The decision as to whether the strong characterisation is enough to make up for the weak narrative is entirely subjective
11:32 AM <+Jak> pfttt
11:33 AM <red3> No likeys, only bad-bad articles.
11:33 AM <+Jak> (I guess a bit of it too is that it uses a character I made, sooo)
11:33 AM <@Calibri_Bold> My article is bad-bad ;-;
11:33 AM <~barredowl> cybersqyd: personally, i think this article juuuust crosses the line of characterization compensating for story?
11:33 AM <+cybersqyd> I'm neutral on it, I think
11:34 AM <~barredowl> it's wavering for me at this point
11:34 AM <+cybersqyd> I don't think it's quite enough to upvote, but not quite enough to downvote either
11:34 AM <red3> cybersqyd: In all seriousness, I don't believe that a single aspect of characterization is nearly enough to make up for a weak narrative. I will admit that this article isn't designed to try much; it's just for some basic writing elements and seems to almost be a bit of practice for the author, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't bore the hell out of me.
11:34 AM <~barredowl> i don't want to novote, but i'm wavering between +1 to -1 territory
11:34 AM <+cybersqyd> red3: sure and I'm not saying you're wrong; just that this is a subjective decision
11:35 AM <~barredowl> because on one hand there are elements that i think could really be used to make something great
11:35 AM <@Gee0765> oh this article
11:35 AM <@Gee0765> for me the characterisation was just about good enough
11:35 AM <~barredowl> but how the things are combined aren't really substantive tbh?
11:35 AM <+cybersqyd> yeah
11:35 AM <red3> I am very, very, **very** meh on this article. I'm going to downvote though, because I want something more exciting with this level of writing ability.
11:35 AM <~barredowl> yeah, i think i'll do that too :|
11:35 AM <BlueJones> I'm keeping my upvote on it cause honestly, the characterisation and the use of the Foundation using family as a way to hire fresh blood for their numbers is fresh from either "bag em and tag em" or the "Either work for us, or take a drug and forget we ever exist"
11:35 AM <@Calibri_Bold> red3: I’m gonna take that as a compliment.
11:36 AM <+cybersqyd> BlueJones, yeah, I think there's definitely a lot of really nice aspects to it like that
11:36 AM <+cybersqyd> I just...wish it did more with 'em?
11:36 AM <+Jak> I'm also going to keep my upvote
11:36 AM <+cybersqyd> I'm keeping my novote
11:36 AM <SharpEmbrace> i see nothing wrong with this as a concept
11:36 AM <BlueJones> cybersqyd: Oh yeah no doubt that mroe could have been done but at the moment imo its good enough to keep my upvote
11:37 AM <+cybersqyd> yeah
11:38 AM <+Jak> any other thoughts?
11:38 AM <+cybersqyd> I like the image in the email
11:38 AM <+cybersqyd> it looks cool
11:38 AM <+Jak> cybersqyd: I agree
11:39 AM <~barredowl> sorry, my brother's friend crashed my internet
11:39 AM <+Jak> neato-mosquito
11:40 AM <~barredowl> so, in summary, there are nice elements, but i don't think they lend themselves to this story in the best way
11:40 AM <~barredowl> namely, the lackluster conflict doesn't really justify itself very well, and there isn't a lot of substance
11:40 AM <+cybersqyd> yeah