# Pastebin 5stxFybr 11:56 AM <~barredowl> so, shall we start up with our first impressions, or wait for a couple others to pool in and give us the go-ahead? 11:57 AM <+cybersqyd> i'd give it a touch longer 11:57 AM Finished. 11:57 AM Personally, I'm still thinking what the heck it is. 11:57 AM I finished and I think I should say that I'm suffering to understand some of the themes that this is exploring really 11:57 AM I downvoted. TLDR? It had beautiful imagery, but none of it justified the existence of this as a skip 11:57 AM It's just a bunch of pretty words. 11:57 AM <+cybersqyd> this is perhaps my favourite scp 11:57 AM — MalyceGraves grins 11:58 AM — +cybersqyd shrugs 11:58 AM <+cybersqyd> i appreciate it for what it is: meaty imagery. 11:58 AM <~barredowl> i really liked the imagery here, and i don't feel like it not justifying itself really bothered me? 11:58 AM <~barredowl> it felt very unique. 11:58 AM cybersqyd: I 100% agree that this is beautifully written 11:58 AM <+cybersqyd> it really captures a nice kinda, eldritch, grasping to understand something beyond us feel 11:58 AM So the anomaly - behind the pretty words - is that the mariana trench is supposedly to be a weakness in realities? and that things fall through to this reality 11:58 AM The imagery is lovely 11:59 AM The imagery is nice but It feels like it just exists for the point of existence 11:59 AM <+cybersqyd> BlueJones, sort of yeah 11:59 AM I think I understood what this was going for, but the overuse of incredibly wordy and unnecessary confusion just made my head hurt as I read through it. If solving a mystery is like finally fitting a key through a keyhole and unlocking the door while blindfolded, this is like punching your fist into the wall over and over again until the entire door falls off its hinges. 11:59 AM <+cybersqyd> it's implied their thrown through reality 12:00 PM <+cybersqyd> Like, I get why this doesn't click for folk; and I don't really get fully why it clicks for me; but it does. 12:00 PM <~barredowl> yeah, i think it just about clicks for me. 12:01 PM cybersqyd: I probably would have upvoted this if it was a tale 12:01 PM ^ 12:01 PM it just doesn't fit Skip very well 12:01 PM This would be a fantastic tale 12:01 PM But as a skip I'm just sort of confused 12:01 PM <+cybersqyd> See, I disagree 12:01 PM <+cybersqyd> It's fundamentally not a tale in any form 12:01 PM hmm. 12:01 PM Elaborate? 12:01 PM <+cybersqyd> The description is the Foundation describing what an anomalous object is, and what it does. 12:02 PM <+cybersqyd> There's the containment procedures setting out how the anomalous object is contained. 12:02 PM MalyceGraves: From my own personal explanation for what this is, I don't think this would've worked better as a tale. It's definitely written as a document from the SCP Foundation, but the environment in which it was written in is fundamentally wrong in a lot of ways. 12:02 PM <+cybersqyd> Like, there's a lot of flowery imagery here yes; but fundamentally it's a surreal hyperobject: the description doesn't make sense because the object doesn't make sense 12:03 PM I have a written document from the Foundation that isn't a skip 12:03 PM <+cybersqyd> Whereas, if this was a tale, there'd be a real sense of it suffering from a lack of story 12:03 PM <~barredowl> yeah, i don't think i could see myself liking this as a tale. i do think the "semantically surreal hyperobject" is a cool object to play around with. 12:03 PM true. 12:03 PM <+cybersqyd> Narratively, this doesn't go anywhere because it's just a description of a weird thing. 12:04 PM cybersqyd: But I'd say that that is inherently a bad idea. Making something that inherently doesn't make sense goes against every possible reason one could write. It's like choosing to speak gibberish all the time, sometimes saying poetic things, and then expecting people to think that you're deep. It doesn't matter if a few things you say are great, the rest of it is completely incomprehensible. 12:04 PM actually, if you put it like that, I kind of really appreciate it. 12:04 PM Since SCP originated as a bunch of "esoteric and anomalous objects" 12:05 PM I am willing to admit that I have a fairly specific set of expectations when it comes to skips. I think this is lovely, but I just don't see this as anything but A Thing Which is Weird" in this context. I love NatVolt's work in general, but I just can't get behind this one 12:05 PM <+cybersqyd> red3: right but it's not like, really about a thing that makes no sense so much as it is about the Foundation trying to understand something they don't get? 12:05 PM This could be a sort of callback to Series 1 in that it's about the object, and not a story 12:05 PM <+cybersqyd> red3: it's like, imagine if you were say, a 2D shape and someone asked you to describe a cube 12:05 PM <~barredowl> MalyceGraves: i could be willing to get behind that interpretation. 12:05 PM <+cybersqyd> it's not that there's no logic to the thing, it's that, the logic is completely alien to us. 12:06 PM Well yes, I also got that interpretation from reading this, but just because it's written very accurately from that perspective doesn't mean its good. If everything in writing was written exactly as it was in the real world, then it would be boring and sometimes very confusing. This falls into both of those traps. 12:06 PM <+cybersqyd> MalyceGraves, I mean, I agree with you that this is Just A Thing Which is Weird here; but...I enjoy it unironically as a weird thing? 12:07 PM I get that. I also like the interpretation `it's not that there's no logic to the thing, it's that, the logic is completely alien to us.` 12:07 PM <~barredowl> yeah, i think i genuinely like the interpretation of this concept a lot that it being relatively shallow doesn't bother me? though then again, i am open to changing my mind about this. 12:07 PM ageed. 12:09 PM <+cybersqyd> red3: yeah. I mean, I technically agree with you on every point here; but for me, this is so nicely written that I'm willing to overlook that not much happens here narratively. 12:11 PM cybersqyd: My own hierarchy of what I look for in articles is like yours, but flipped. I value narrative much more than the prose itself; a person could write the most beautiful book ever full of vivid descriptions and flowing lines, but if it only describes the day-to-day life of a family that share no conflict, I'm going to dislike it either way. This is also the reason why I feel like the prose hinders this, because 12:11 PM I feel the need to dive in-between the lines to see what this is really saying and not understanding what the lines even are doesn't help in that department. 12:12 PM i don't have much to say other than that i fundamentally don't enjoy reading someone wax poetic somewhat aimlessly 12:12 PM ^ 12:13 PM <+cybersqyd> red3: see, imo, this is closer to a poem than a short story; where it's fine that narratively it doesn't go anywhere because the imagery is great. And like, yeah, narrative is generally really important in short stories but also not everything is a short story. 12:14 PM forgive me if i'm being stupid here, but I don't really see what's so good about the imagery here either 12:14 PM I think both are very valid perceptions; I'm not really sure where I stand 12:14 PM <~barredowl> yeah 12:14 PM <~barredowl> yeah, i think i've pretty much exhausted everything i have to say. since i still fundamentally enjoyed it quite a bit, i'll leave it a tentative +1. does anyone have any concluding thoughts they want to express? 12:15 PM for the most part the identities seem rather disconnected and incoherrent 12:15 PM I have said all I needed to. In spite of this whole word play, I'm going to give it an upvote cause this is very pretty and I can see the logic of "alien logic and possible craziness of it all". for those reasons its a very light upvote 12:15 PM what am i missing 12:15 PM <~barredowl> hmm. 12:16 PM Well, if you feel like this is a poem, then why is there a need for this to be an SCP? By the fact that it is on the database and is an SCP article, it is telling the reader that this is going to describe an anomaly. That fact combined with how dense the prose here is suggests a kind of mystery? Okay, what is this describing? Is this a memetic thing or is this just how the people write? It promises the reader that there 12:16 PM will be at least some kind of explanation for the things here, so I highly disagree with stating that "it's fine that narratively it doesn't go anywhere because the imagery is great" goes against that assertion. If there isn't meant to be even a hint of an explanation in here, then I feel like it shouldn't be an SCP. 12:17 PM <+cybersqyd> "The Periapsis is a semantically surreal hyperobject": it's a 4-d object that's semantically surreal, i.e, attempts to describe it tend to the non-sensical. 12:18 PM <@Calibri_Bold> This one is definitely an interesting one, and I agree with cybersqyd that it fits best as an SCP. 12:19 PM okay but i really feel the format screw is unjustified 12:19 PM I do agree that it should be an SCP, but I disagree with their method of thought. The difference between an SCP article and everything else on the wiki is the specific format and the questions that it provides to the reader, so stating that those questions should be overlooked in favor of pure prose goes against fundamentally what an SCP should be. 12:20 PM I actually have to disagree here. 12:20 PM I think no individual really has a right to say what an "SCP" is. 12:20 PM i don't actually care all that much about it being an scp or a tale 12:20 PM i downvote either way 12:21 PM <@Calibri_Bold> Greyve: I mean, there is a definition, but I see your point. 12:21 PM <+cybersqyd> SharpEmbrace, in what way do you think the format screw is unjustified? 12:21 PM Greyve: But you do agree that there is a difference? 12:21 PM An SCP is written. That's all it needs be. 12:21 PM <+cybersqyd> SharpEmbrace, really, I'm just looking at that argument and being like 'what': it's fundamentally an object that can't be described easily, which takes multiple forms at once, and which is defined as surreal. 12:22 PM We're at so many levels of self-reference that we have skips about skips about the idea of skips 12:22 PM <+cybersqyd> SharpEmbrace, so, the format screw is inherently justified because without the format screw, the entire anomaly wouldn't work convincingly. 12:22 PM cybersqyd: I subjectively believe that writing in this way doesn't create a desirable end result 12:22 PM <+cybersqyd> Right but that's a different question entirely 12:22 PM <@Gee0765> that's not really- 12:22 PM <@Gee0765> yeah that 12:22 PM oh heya gee 12:22 PM <@Gee0765> this is one of the format screws that's entirely justified because of what the anomaly is 12:22 PM <+cybersqyd> "is the format screw justified" and "is the format screw good" are not synonymous. 12:22 PM Greyve: So you believe that there is no difference? Why is that? Because there are fourth-wall breaks and SCPs that reference previous works? Those have been a thing for a long time in many other mediums of art, but we still have specific categories for what those mediums are. 12:23 PM <@Gee0765> hello im popping in for a bit 12:23 PM <@Calibri_Bold> Gee is correct. 12:23 PM <@Gee0765> btw i like this one 12:23 PM <~barredowl> hi gee 12:23 PM <@Gee0765> totally get why others wouldn't though 12:23 PM <+cybersqyd> yeah 12:23 PM I think that a lot of the confusion we're having is due to the fact that we're not sharing what we think this is actually describing. 12:24 PM <@Calibri_Bold> Something else that's cool about this is that even though it /doesn't/ make sense, it still feels like it's describing /something/. 12:24 PM <@Calibri_Bold> It's like making a fictional language. 12:24 PM <+cybersqyd> cal: yeah 12:24 PM <~barredowl> yeah personally, just to wrap my side of the argument up, i can sympathize with people not clicking with the format screw, but i thought here it was pulled off very well. 12:24 PM red3: SCPs are a concept as much as the concepts within SCP are. My philosophy on SCP is somewhat explained in 5309, but I think that as long as there is a fundamental //idea// it can be an SCP. 12:24 PM I personally don't have much of an opinion on the article. 12:24 PM <@Calibri_Bold> When making someone speak in a made up language, there's still some level of execution that makes that language sound like a language. 12:25 PM I think format screws ma or may not be justified, but you can always attempt them and shouldn't be reprimaded just by the sheer fact that you attempted something new and ambitious. 12:25 PM But in this case, I feel like the screw works somewhat well 12:25 PM <@Calibri_Bold> It's more than just "slap random sounds together," because language is a lot more complex and developed than that. 12:25 PM It's just that it didn't come together as well as it could have. 12:26 PM <@Calibri_Bold> This article does something similar; it makes no sense to us, but it almost feels like we're just reading this in the wrong language. 12:26 PM What i am trying to say is that you need the format screw to create this content 12:26 PM Greyve: Right, I agree with your point on format screws because they don't actually abandon the questions which the SCP Format suggests: What is this article describing, and what is the story? Therefore, you can at least say that something which doesn't fulfill those two questions is a bad format screw, right? 12:26 PM but that the content is not worth creating; thus, the screw has a justification but it's not like a good one 12:27 PM red3: not necessarily, actually. The idea of having a narrative is ingrained into us as modern authors, but SCP started out being just "things that do things." the story was the Foundation itself, and that's enough. 12:28 PM <~barredowl> yeah 12:28 PM <~barredowl> i suppsoe 12:29 PM I think an SCP only needs to be an idea; the format is a medium through which you can express your idea, and many people DO choose to use the standard format because the constraints can lead to creative development. However, the idea itself might be conveyed better otherwise, and I don't think we have any right to not allow an idea to be conveyed. 12:29 PM Greyve: That doesn't answer my question. Old articles worked because the anomalies were described and there was a story. That story may have been implied and as small as "This thing exists and can do this", but that still leads the reader through a logical series of events. The climax is replaced with the most gruesome detail, the exposition replaced with the ConProcs, the inciting incident with the first few lines of 12:29 PM the Description. Narrative is absolutely required for any type of SCP. 12:30 PM Calibri_Bold: I completely agree with you there, but then is it enjoyable just because it's in a different kind of language? I don't read many books that are written in Spanish or Russian because I can't understand the words. How can it good if you can't even figure out what it's trying to say? 12:31 PM Like i said, my view of SCPs doesn't require a narrative; It's nice to have one, sure, and it can make an idea more enthralling, but fundamentally, all it takes is an idea. Narrative ITSELF is just another format that we're consigned to. 12:31 PM Okay, then is there an article you can point to which doesn't have a narrative? 12:32 PM <@Calibri_Bold> red3: I won't say it's a perfect comparison; this /is/ written in English, and I think it does mean something. The observation I was making is that this isn't just slapping words together; it's very deliberate. 12:32 PM Well that depends on your definition of narrative... 12:32 PM I'm not that bothered about whether this belongs as an SCP or Tale, more so I think that the content of the article doesn't justify its existence to me in any format. 12:32 PM ^ 12:32 PM I share the same view as SharpEmbrace. The fundamental //idea// isn't enthralling enough for me. 12:32 PM <+cybersqyd> hm, it kinda feels like we're just going round in circles here. 12:32 PM fair enough 12:33 PM <+cybersqyd> does anyone have anything new to add? 12:33 PM i've said all i have to say about this 12:33 PM <~barredowl> yeah, i've pretty much exhausted everything i have to say 12:33 PM I've said all of my main points. I'd be just nitpicking individual sentences at this point.