# Pastebin 5KWJPoQ5
1:11 PM <~barredowl> discussion time!
1:11 PM <red3> There's the identity of 087-1 and the crying child, what happens to the D-Class in the second exploration log when it gets caught, what is the relationship between the different things that lurk inside of 087.
1:11 PM <~barredowl> red3: yeah, this skip certainly leaves a lot to interpretation. i do think enough was explained to keep the reader wanting.
1:12 PM <~barredowl> wanting more*
1:12 PM <+cybersqyd> wait I just realised
1:12 PM <+cybersqyd> they didn't like...seal off the place where the scp is
1:12 PM <carolynn> you get the archetypical series 1 researher d-class dialogue
1:12 PM <+cybersqyd> regular folk just walk past everyday cos it's in a university
1:12 PM <red3> Of course, this is diminished slightly by the fact that the reader can just see that the fourth exploration log has been expunged. Nowadays, it would be put in a collapsible to make that reveal hit harder.
1:12 PM <carolynn> *archetypal
1:13 PM <~barredowl> that could be fun, but that's a little strange?
1:13 PM <carolynn> barredowl: what is
1:13 PM <~barredowl> i mean, it's a fun idea to think about how what you might think is a regular broom closet is actually a door to an anomaly, but it really isn't that practical when you think about it
1:13 PM <+cybersqyd> yeah
1:13 PM <+cybersqyd> it feels weirdly inconsequential here
1:13 PM <~barredowl> red3: i do think that reveal could be executed a little better were collapsibles used instead
1:13 PM <carolynn> cybersqyd: they do describe this absurdly over-the-top lock on the door, though
1:14 PM <DrMoned> "It has been disguised to resemble a janitorial closet" yeah hang on, why not just wall it up
1:14 PM <+cybersqyd> oh yeah i mean, i know they can't get in
1:14 PM <red3> A big problem with this scip is how it blurs the line between telling a good horror story and telling a believe Foundation story. 
1:14 PM <~barredowl> the skip does have a nice lead-up to exploration iv being expunged
1:14 PM <+cybersqyd> yeah; I think nowadays there'd be a big question about why they keep sending folk in?
1:14 PM <~barredowl> the reveal just could've been used a little better
1:14 PM <Hexick> carolynn: Yea, I always wondered why it needed to be so complex. Like O get since it's in a public area but the lock just seems over the top.
1:14 PM <red3> Making it resemble a janitorial closet gives me an image of, like, a dark room in my childhood home that always frightened me. It creates a kind of primal fear in me.
1:14 PM <+cybersqyd> it's trying to lure folk in
1:15 PM <~barredowl> maybe it's like a 4511 situation, where there's a mild compulsion to keep sending people in?
1:15 PM <~barredowl> but then i might suffocate from going so far up my own ass
1:15 PM <+cybersqyd> hm
1:15 PM <carolynn> idk about log iv being expunged. if people did that today it'd be like "okay welp that's kinda cheap"
1:15 PM <carolynn> then again they'd probably say that since 087 did it first
1:15 PM <red3> It also gives it that creepypasta vibe, where this anomaly could be discovered by anybody that stumbles across this one janitor's closet.
1:15 PM <~barredowl> i think there's a good reveal in there somewhere.
1:15 PM <+cybersqyd> i don't think it's a compulsion so much as the scp is deliberately trying to like, make it feel like there's someone in danger you have to go save?
1:16 PM <Hexick> barredowl: I didn't get that vibe. I think it was more to better the understanding of the anomaly.
1:16 PM <+cybersqyd> hence the crying person too
1:16 PM <~barredowl> red3: it did give major creepypasta vibes, especially with the "087-1 is looking directly at you oooh"
1:16 PM <~barredowl> i don't think there's a compulsion effect there, come to think of it
1:16 PM <red3> Yeah, that's where it fell flat in comparison to other SCPs that did it better like 1981.
1:16 PM <red3> SCP-1981
1:16 PM <@Secretary_Helen> red3: SCP-1981: "RONALD REAGAN CUT UP WHILE TALKING" (Rating: +1843. Written 7 years ago By: Digiwizzard) - http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-1981
1:16 PM <carolynn> yeah the creepypasta factor is also turned up to 11 what with the image on the page that's different when you refresh
1:16 PM <DrMoned> carolynn not sure though. The last expunged log leaves it to imagination
1:16 PM <~barredowl> i actually liked that the image was interchangeable with 087-1 being there or not there
1:16 PM <carolynn> DrMoned: i mean, i guess "never reveal the monster"
1:16 PM <DrMoned> I would say there is enough content before it to justify that
1:17 PM <~barredowl> small touch
1:17 PM <carolynn> and i suppose the expungement thing was novel still at the time?
1:17 PM <Hexick> DrMoned: I think a short note would go a long way alluding to why it was expunged.
1:17 PM <red3> I really love the clear use of characters. 087-1 is meant to be the main monster with the crying girl as the motivation for the D-Class, or the protagonist in this case, to continue into this setting. It's clear cut storytelling.
1:17 PM <carolynn> given that the concept of scp was still fairly fresh
1:17 PM <~barredowl> yeah, the characters are really delineated and clean, making them fairly easy to empathize with
1:18 PM <DrMoned> Hexick true
1:18 PM <~barredowl> i'd say in comparison to other skips, that was a fairly novel way of expunging something
1:18 PM <+cybersqyd> it's the kinda relatively long, relatively uneventful thing that like, normally i'd struggle to get through? but i found it pretty engaging here
1:18 PM <~barredowl> it really gives off a good vibe
1:18 PM <DrMoned> Yeah compared to the rest of well known series 1 it is done pretty well :P
1:18 PM <carolynn> yeah it's a classic for a reason
1:19 PM <~barredowl> while i did find the explorations fairly identical to one another, i still enjoyed reading them.
1:19 PM <carolynn> and the usage of the online format with the image changing on refresh, again, really stick out to me
1:19 PM <carolynn> i imagine the point of that is to emulate like
1:19 PM <~barredowl> it felt like the same setup and payoff every time, but still
1:19 PM <+cybersqyd> barredowl, yeah: the logs all feel quite...samey to start with
1:19 PM <DrMoned> The exploration logs were written pretty soon after as well werent they?
1:19 PM <~barredowl> those were some nice exploration logs
1:19 PM <+cybersqyd> but I think it works well?
1:19 PM <red3> Exactly. It keeps delaying and delaying and delaying the answer to the questions so much that the reader is forced to continue all the way through only to be forced to construct it themselves. It's really good for keeping the reader engaged, but always feels very cheap.
1:19 PM <carolynn> if, when you looked at the image on a printed copy of the documentation, it changed upon viewings
1:19 PM <carolynn> which is kinda sick
1:20 PM <~barredowl> that would be pretty sick, tbh
1:20 PM <+cybersqyd> yeah, it feels like there's a kind of lack of closure here which I think works just about?
1:20 PM <+cybersqyd> this is me agreeing with the point i think red3 is making here
1:20 PM <~barredowl> the lack of closure is on the brink of being annoying but i think it was pulled off well enough
1:21 PM <+cybersqyd> yeah, I think it just about nails 'tantalising' over 'unsatisfying'
1:21 PM <carolynn> the piece certainly captures the "you are reading beauracratic, printed documentation above your clearance" in a certain way other pieces don't
1:21 PM <carolynn> the impassive tone of the researcher in the logs adds to that
1:21 PM <~barredowl> the clinical tone in this document was pretty great, honestly
1:21 PM <~barredowl> i think the logs did a very good job at establishing just how much of a threat 087-1 and the like
1:21 PM <~barredowl> is
1:22 PM <~barredowl> it's a very simple monster idea
1:22 PM <~barredowl> but i think it was pulled off quite well
1:22 PM <+cybersqyd> hm
1:22 PM <red3> One thing I liked about the logs especially was how they didn't repeat information. This is more due to the Description not giving any indication of what 087-1 actually does than anything in the logs themselves, but it's still a lot better than some modern SCPs which fall into that trap. 
1:22 PM <+cybersqyd> yeah
1:22 PM <carolynn> red3: agreed
1:22 PM <~barredowl> there definitely were some parts where i feel information was relayed over and over again, but there definitely was a lot of information which was spread throughout the logs
1:23 PM <carolynn> like the description just kinda tells you what it is. it describes the thing itself. but the logs show you narratively what it is, and what it does
1:23 PM <carolynn> it feels quite real that way
1:23 PM <~barredowl> like the "lights don't light up 087 that well" info
1:23 PM <+cybersqyd> oh yeah it really hammers home the lights thing
1:24 PM <~barredowl> i think the description did a good job in telling the reader just the right amount of info to get them hooked.
1:24 PM <carolynn> the thing i really like about 087 is how real it feels, to me. like it really does pull off the balancing act between "narratively interesting" and "probably classified government docs" really well in a way other scps sometimes dont
1:24 PM <@Calibri_Bold> ^
1:24 PM <~barredowl> agreed.
1:25 PM <+cybersqyd> 087 definitely reads like you're reading classified documentation you're not meant to read
1:25 PM <~barredowl> there is a very perpetual clinical tone running through the whole piece
1:25 PM <+cybersqyd> which, I think modern scps have moved away from? they often feel like they're written assuming the reader is part of the Foundation
1:25 PM <~barredowl> cybersqyd: agreed.
1:25 PM <carolynn> it's more than just the tone, too. it's the structure of the piece and all that
1:26 PM <carolynn> cybersqyd: or like the piece is deliberately fictional
1:26 PM <+cybersqyd> yeah
1:26 PM <carolynn> like, you're either high clearance, or you're more acutely aware that scp is not reel
1:26 PM <~barredowl> it does expand on that vibe you get from 173
1:26 PM <+cybersqyd> which, I think is perhaps a good change?
1:26 PM <red3> It becomes a annoying at times with the logs sometimes describing the amount of degrees each D-Class turns, but overall the clinical tone was pretty good.
1:26 PM <carolynn> cybersqyd: ehhhh idk!
1:27 PM <carolynn> i think it's just, a change
1:27 PM <~barredowl> i think it is a change for the better, to be honest. you can't just write pieces mimicking stumbling on a classified document without your permission for the end of time.
1:27 PM <+cybersqyd> Or at least, moving away from always feeling like you're doing a reading crime opens you up to writing emotional pieces that don't touch on dread
1:27 PM <carolynn> like you eventually run out of things to do with the one so you scoot to the other. it's kind of like, idk, a shift from a weird modern to a post-modern
1:27 PM <+cybersqyd> yeah
1:27 PM <red3> It's a natural reaction with the growth of SCP. When it was small, stumbling onto an SCP felt like you were reading something you shouldn't be, and it gives you that sense of not having high enough clearance to get answers. Nowadays, you feel like you're reading it alongside ten other people, so you expect an answer.
1:27 PM <carolynn> like think about how scp-231, scp-2317, and tufto's proposal are all different aspects of that
1:28 PM <~barredowl> 231 is another good example of giving off that unwanted feel when you're reading it
1:28 PM <carolynn> scp-231 is series 1 "you're not supposed to be reading this"
1:28 PM <@Secretary_Helen> carolynn: SCP-231: Special Personnel Requirements (Rating: +1881. Written 11 years ago By: DrClef) - http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-231
1:28 PM <~barredowl> here, i think this piece really conveys that
1:28 PM <carolynn> scp-2317 is like "you are high clearance so now you get some more clear view of the foundation" (which imo might not be the best thing)
1:28 PM <@Secretary_Helen> carolynn: SCP-2317: A Door to Another World (Rating: +1837. Written 6 years ago By: DrClef) - http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-2317
1:28 PM <carolynn> and 
1:29 PM <carolynn> .s tufto's proposal
1:29 PM <@Secretary_Helen> carolynn: Tufto's Proposal (Rating: +528. Written 1 year ago By: Tufto) - http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/tuftos-proposal
1:29 PM <carolynn> is like "this is deliberate fiction to explore philosphy" which is the third option
1:29 PM <carolynn> they're all exploring the same general concept but the places they come from are so completely different and each one has its own appeal
1:29 PM <+cybersqyd> did anyone read 3333 btw?
1:29 PM <carolynn> i did
1:29 PM <~barredowl> i think redactions really only work for me when a document gives off that "you shouldn't look at this" vibe
1:30 PM <~barredowl> cyber: yes i did
1:30 PM <carolynn> barredowl: facts
1:30 PM <red3> If there was one problem I see with the logs, is that it changes what it wants the reader to find out.
1:30 PM <+cybersqyd> oh?
1:30 PM <~barredowl> otherwise, it just feels unnecessary
1:30 PM <red3> *it's that it changes
1:30 PM <+cybersqyd> (that was me asking red3 to elaborate just for clarity)
1:30 PM <carolynn> red3: elaborate?
1:30 PM <+cybersqyd> ;
1:30 PM <+cybersqyd> ....;p
1:30 PM <red3> In the first log, the main source of mystery was what 087-1 actually did to its victims, which is answered somewhat by 087-1 just chasing them out of 087. In the second log, the question shifts to the identity of the girl with the D-Class putting up light fixtures which are meant to act as a safe heaven from 087-1.
1:30 PM <carolynn> :P
1:31 PM <~barredowl> i wasn't actually worrying too much about who the girl was per se?
1:31 PM <+cybersqyd> Weird question: what do y'all think happened in Document 4?
1:31 PM <carolynn> idk i always kind of assumed the girl was like, a predatory call
1:31 PM <~barredowl> i think the source of mystery for me stayed relatively consistent
1:32 PM <red3> This is then revealed to not be safe by the end with 087-1 attacking the D-Class. The main question now becomes what 087-1 actually did which caused the D-Class to enter a coma. And in the third one it alludes to finding out the identity of the girl again, but then it just goes back to 087-1 being creepy.
1:32 PM <~barredowl> cybersqyd: they found something really fuckin creepy at the bottom, maybe they make a creepy revelation
1:32 PM <+cybersqyd> Because I was thinking about it and I realised like. I have a rough shape of what they might've found but not why they reacted as they did
1:32 PM <carolynn> cybersqyd: tbh there's absolutely no way to tell for me so i have negative headcanon beyond "above the clearance of whoever printed this document"
1:32 PM <~barredowl> this piece also gave me huge house of leaves vibes
1:32 PM <carolynn> barredowl: facts!!
1:32 PM <~barredowl> probably cause of all the darkness and exploration and whatnot
1:33 PM <+cybersqyd> Like, I think the implication is they found the girl in 4; and in turn that she hugely changed their perception of what this anomaly is
1:33 PM <+cybersqyd> But I guess it was just a lure?
1:33 PM <@Calibri_Bold> cybersqyd: What if it wasn't?
1:33 PM <+cybersqyd> oh?
1:33 PM <@Calibri_Bold> I mean.
1:33 PM <~barredowl> i have a general shape in my head as well about what happened in exploration iv as well
1:33 PM <+cybersqyd> you think there's a girl and the foundation can't rescue her because of -1?
1:33 PM <@Calibri_Bold> A lure would be the most obvious answer.
1:33 PM <red3> I guess that's somewhat par for the course because this is a monster story, but I'd still like it better if the questions didn't overstep on each other all the time.
1:34 PM <@Calibri_Bold> cybersqyd: Maybe, maybe not.
1:34 PM <+cybersqyd> mm
1:34 PM <~barredowl> i think this was a relatively well-flowing piece, and i didn't feel like questions really overstepped on each other
1:34 PM <@Calibri_Bold> But I'd be interested to see some possible answers to that.
1:34 PM <~barredowl> but maybe that's just because i don't read too critically
1:34 PM <+cybersqyd> the implication from how tightly locked it is is that they don't want -1 leaving
1:34 PM <~barredowl> or don't want people coming in as well?
1:34 PM <carolynn> por que no los dos
1:35 PM <~barredowl> but that's an admittedly duller implication
1:35 PM <red3> From the addendum log, it seems like they just don't want more people entering.
1:35 PM <+cybersqyd> maybe
1:35 PM <@Calibri_Bold> barredowl: I'm curious to see if perhaps they don't want people coming in for a reason beyond its anomalous properties.
1:35 PM <~barredowl> that could be an interesting possibility to explore
1:35 PM <~barredowl> or think about
1:36 PM <+cybersqyd> i'm just wondering if there's an angle where like, they've left someone in there deliberately to distract -1 from escaping
1:36 PM <@Calibri_Bold> And perhaps it relates to what they find in the fourth exploration.
1:36 PM <~barredowl> i actually like that interpretation quite a bit
1:36 PM <+cybersqyd> it's weird: in a modern piece, the implication of the redacted log would be relatively clear
1:36 PM <+cybersqyd> whereas here they feel very unknown
1:36 PM <red3> I'd argue it's still relatively clear in this article.
1:37 PM <~barredowl> cybersqyd: how would redacted logs in a modern piece be clear exactly?
1:37 PM <red3> But we've been talking about this for around 30 minutes, so do we want to switch over to 096?
1:37 PM <+cybersqyd> well, in the sense that the writer would do more to imply what they've hidden
1:37 PM <@Calibri_Bold> Maybe this is a wild theory, but perhaps the child at the bottom is linked to -1, and they have to keep her there so that -1 won't escape.
1:37 PM <~barredowl> oh, yeah
1:37 PM <@Calibri_Bold> And the log is redacted simply so that there's no pressure to let her go.
1:37 PM <+cybersqyd> maybe
1:38 PM <~barredowl> maybe the girl was a doing of a previous iteration of the foundation or something like that?
1:38 PM <+cybersqyd> maybe
1:38 PM <@Calibri_Bold> There's a wide variety of possibilities to explore.
1:38 PM <@Calibri_Bold> barredowl: I like that.
1:38 PM <~barredowl> yeah, once you get thinking about that, this really becomes an interesting skip to think about
1:38 PM <red3> I'd still say that the implication that the girl is just a lure for victims is very clear from the logs themselves and the addendum.
1:38 PM <~barredowl> but idk if that's something inherent to the work or just us speculating hard
1:39 PM <@Calibri_Bold> red3: That's the thing: what if it isn't?
1:39 PM <~barredowl> yeah, i'd say the girl is more of a lure so that 087-1 can attack or scare any victims
1:39 PM <+cybersqyd> red3, yeah, I definitely think that's the intended explanation
1:39 PM <red3> I think we're just overspeculating at this point.
1:39 PM <carolynn> red3: i'd agree. it's fun to theorize about because the article never gives clear answers, but i'd gather that's what the author intended us to believe
1:39 PM <+cybersqyd> probably but I think that's fun, sometimes.
1:39 PM <@Calibri_Bold> ^
1:39 PM <+cybersqyd> to explore how like, you can interpret a work in different ways
1:39 PM <+cybersqyd> and see how it changes your understanding of it
1:39 PM <red3> It is, but that's not really analyzing the article, that's more just exploring the possible options that the story could go.
1:39 PM <carolynn> part of the intrigue of the redactions and such: no clear answers
1:40 PM <@Calibri_Bold> It's very likely that the implication is that she's just a lure.
1:40 PM <@Calibri_Bold> But it's cool to speculate about something else.
1:40 PM <red3> It is fun to theorize though, yes.
1:40 PM <red3> We should probably move onto 096.
1:40 PM <carolynn> shit like scp-087 shows a very early trend which has continued through a lot of pieces; you don't have all the answers. is that because the foundation doesn't have all the answers, or because the article has the answers redacted?
1:40 PM <~barredowl> it is really fun to theorize about this. this really is a blank slate of a skip in terms of interpretations
1:40 PM <~barredowl> alright, so
1:41 PM <carolynn> that's part of what makes redactions like
1:41 PM <~barredowl> i think we're gonna wrap up our 087 discussion
1:41 PM <carolynn> a thing
1:41 PM <carolynn> esp. in early scps
1:41 PM <~barredowl> so, any final thoughts about this skip?
1:41 PM <+cybersqyd> are we wanting a break between scps here or?
1:41 PM <~barredowl> we'll take a break after we get in our final thoughts
1:41 PM <red3> We could take a break. This'll likely last more than our usual hour.
1:41 PM <red3> *last longer
1:41 PM <~barredowl> yeah, we'll take a break
1:42 PM <+cybersqyd> 087 is kinda nostalgic
1:42 PM <~barredowl> personally, i was kinda expecting to hate this because of the use of redactions and how old it is. but i think it still holds up to modern scrutiny, especially the elements of horror used here.
1:42 PM <+cybersqyd> it was one of the SCPs I read like, the first time I came to the site and really remembered then
1:42 PM <carolynn> same. it's a classic for a reason
1:43 PM <+cybersqyd> I think it's solidly alright? It's not like, the best thing I've ever read or anything but it's completely fine and well done.
1:43 PM <red3> People tend to box in Series I as just "old scips that are trash by today's standards" but there was actually a lot of varied history in that one series. It lasted over two years, and there were a lot of stylistic shifts in that time.
1:43 PM <~barredowl> strange, i don't really see it getting talked about in satellite fandoms as much as other works
1:43 PM <+cybersqyd> yeah
1:43 PM <carolynn> agreed
1:43 PM <+cybersqyd> 087?
1:43 PM <~barredowl> yeah
1:43 PM <+cybersqyd> hm
1:44 PM <~barredowl> probably because there isn't really that many characters or elements to hook onto in a superficial reading
1:44 PM <carolynn> barredowl: i think it's certainly up there. it's not quite as accessible as like, 096 sorta, but it's higher rated than 096 (which i admit also surprised me!)
1:44 PM <+cybersqyd> I would've definitely said it was one of the bigger ones; maybe not like, as big as Able/173/682 but like. still huge?
1:44 PM <red3> That and the outer fandom tends to latch onto articles with very clear characters like 682, 2521, 173 etc.
1:44 PM <~barredowl> but that may just be because i don't really interact with the satellite fandom too much and i don't know its ins and outs
1:44 PM <carolynn> facts
1:44 PM <red3> This has more of a focus on story, rather than character.
1:44 PM <+cybersqyd> yeah
1:44 PM <carolynn> barredowl: tbh i don't go near them
1:44 PM <~barredowl> it's still a huge skip, undoubtedly
1:44 PM <+cybersqyd> I think the satellite fandom likes stuff it can draw easily and stuff
1:45 PM <+cybersqyd> and make memes of
1:45 PM <~barredowl> 087-1 is sorta drawable
1:45 PM <~barredowl> but not especially
1:45 PM <~barredowl> it's just a face
1:45 PM <red3> Speaking of the satellite fandom, let's move onto 096.