{"body":"AngelToday at 16:56\n@RavensDagger\nListen. As one human being to what I hope is another\nRavensDaggerToday at 16:56\nBeep boop\nAngelToday at 16:56\nYou don't get to decide who has the right to feel targetted by what\nRavensDaggerToday at 16:56\nBut yeah, I'm listening\nI wouldn't try to make that kind of decision either\nAngelToday at 16:56\nExcept you did.\nRavensDaggerToday at 16:57\nBut I'm not going to go around and be offended on another person's behalf\nAngelToday at 16:57\nNo, but you decided someone had no reason to feel targetted.\nDo you really know them that well?\nThat you can decide that for them?\nDespite clear evidence to the contrary?\nBlue RoseToday at 16:57\n>to what I hope is another\nthe joke about the French goes here\nRavensDaggerToday at 16:59\nSomeone being offended by something isn't enough to move me very much; I don't have enough empathy going around for that kind of thing. And even if it did, what sort of action would you have wanted me to take? Apologise for laughing at a joke?\nAngelToday at 17:01\nI don't know. Some basic human decency regarding how you've clearly made someone upset, and continue to do so, topped with 'deal with it lol', maybe? But, time and time again, you've shown you can't understand that.\nDo you expect people to just open up about everything that can be used to target them, or make them feel targeted?\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:02\nExactly!\nAngelToday at 17:02\nTo honest, before all the doubling down, just an actual apology would have been nice.\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:02\nHow can I know what might offend someone?\nAngelToday at 17:02\nI think it was made pretty fucking clear pretty fucking quickly.\nYou may not know what might offend someone, but when you do, you cut that shit out.\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:03\noh are we doing this again\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:03\nWhat should I do? Bottle up everything I want to say or write because there's an off chance that me laughing at a character sketch looking like Arnold Shwatenegger might offend someone?\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:03\nlmao\nAngelToday at 17:03\nSomnolent, fuck off, you're irrelevant and uninvolved.\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:03\nnah\nany time anyone gets pissy over jokes i have to involve myself, see\nbecause it's so funny\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:04\nI could apologise and say 'ah, I'm sorry me laughing at that joke offended you' but it would be a lie. I'm really not sorry. I found it funny, I laughed.\nLiterally every single joke has a victim\nIt's how humour works\nAngelToday at 17:04\nYou just don't get it.\nAnd to be honest, I'm doubting you ever will.\njacobkToday at 17:04\nyour offense is not enough to convince me to censor myself\nAngelToday at 17:05\nAnd you wonder why people punch nazis.\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:05\nlmao\nare you really gonna\ncall us nazis for laughing at a joke\nand laughing at you getting mad over it\nAngelToday at 17:05\nYou're the one that said it.\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:05\noh yeah, real cauldron 2.0\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:06\nI think in this circumstance, you the one acting in a fascist way? But let's please not devolve into accusing each other of nazism\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:06\nhey angel\nhey\nlemme tell you a little secret\nheil hitler\nAngelToday at 17:06\nSomn, I get it. You're an asshole.\nNow kindly let the adults talk?\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:07\ngas the jews, 1488\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:07\nSomn, you fucking juvenile, gtfo for a bit\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:07\nlmao\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:07\nGodamn asian cowboy\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:08\ngetting this mad over a joke isn't very adult either angel\nespecially like what\na week later\ndamn\ntalk about rent free\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:08\nAnyway~\n@Angel I think this is some sort of fundamental misunderstanding. My morals wouldn't allow me to even begin to try censoring thing the way you seem to want me to. I think it sucks that Hel got upset, but I also refuse to hand out false apologies or censor myself from laughing (or worse, start walking on eggshells over everything) just because I might accidentally upset someone.\nThe entire foundation of humour involves turning someone into a victim. You'd be asking everyone to forgo comedy just because it might offend someone? Or maybe I'm putting words in your mouth there.\nActually, yeah, that's a good place to start: what do you want us to do?\nAngelToday at 17:12\nI'm not actually sure, tbh, since 'acting like decent human beings' is so far out of your reach.\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:12\nI'm acting human, period\nAngelToday at 17:12\nDecent human.\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:12\nI laughed at a fucking joke\nAngelToday at 17:12\nThere's a rather noticable difference.\nYeah, and apologies are more like \"I'm sorry I upset you,\" rather than \"I'm sorry you got offended,\" y'know?\nRemember that guy who did the stupid things in the suicide forest and the internet ragged on him for a while?\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:14\nthat's why you never apologize for making a joke\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:14\nBut I'm not sorry that I laughed\nAngelToday at 17:14\nI know your mother didn't, Somn.\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:14\ngive one inch and people like you will take a mile lmao\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:14\nAnd I'm not sorry that we made jokes at the expense of a piece of poorly drawn artwork\nOHhhhh\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:14\n>mom jokes\n>\"let the adults talk\"\npick one lmao\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:14\nSnap, lol\nAngelToday at 17:15\nSo, I explained it in the clearest possible manner\nAnd you still can't understand the difference.\nI'm honestly amazed and can't rule out you're being stupid on purpose to try get a rise out of me.\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:16\nI... might have missed the explanation\nAngelToday at 17:16\napologies are more like \"I'm sorry I upset you,\" rather than \"I'm sorry you got offended,\" y'know?\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:16\nI guarantee, any stupidity on my part is very much genetic and not purposeful\nAngelToday at 17:16\nCan you honestly not see?\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:16\nI can see it, yeah\nAngelToday at 17:16\nChrist almighty, how old are you?\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:16\nold enough to laugh at jokes\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:16\n27?\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:17\nunlike you, apparently\nAngelToday at 17:17\nI'll laugh at jokes when they're funny.\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:17\nSomn, go fuck that pretty hat of yours for a bit\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:17\nalright\ni'll be laughing at the biggest joke on this server in the meantime\nAngelToday at 17:18\nDon't be too much of a narcissist, Somn, it's unbecoming of you.\nRaven, do you understand the difference between, \"I'm sorry I upset you,\" and \"I'm sorry you got offended,\"?\nIf so, please explain it so I know where you're coming from.\nOh, hey, I see we got rid of the rules channel. Not like it was listened to to begin with, eh?\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:22\nBut yeah, tl;dr:\nI found a joke funny. Hel was offended by that joke.\nI don't particularly care that someone found a joke offensive because... that's how jokes are. They always target someone, it's the nature of humour. Frankly, I found the level of offense Hel took to be a bit much, but there might be some history there. I don't know, I think the entirely of my interactions with Hel were saying 'hi' once or twice. \nAm I sorry they got upset? Yes, but frankly, more for all the trouble it's brought on than anything else. Would I laugh at another joke? Yes. Will we be implementing any sort of rules that make it so that people need to censor themselves here? No, this place is literally meant to be rule-less. I think we called the line on 'making death-threats.' It's the entire goal of this server; that people can interact and say and do what they want.\nAngelToday at 17:23\nI see.\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:23\nI don't want to not be friends with people, but I'm not going to lie to Hel and say I'm sorry I laughed at a joke that wasn't even directly at her expense\nAngelToday at 17:24\nYou still don't get that all we're really looking for is an apology that you made her upset.\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:24\nWere it targetted to her, like your insults to Somn earlier, then I think there would be a stronger case, and yeah, then I might feel bad for laughing\nAngelToday at 17:24\nCalling me out but not somn, huh?\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:25\nSomn is Somn. He's got the maturity of twice-hit roadkill, I don't expect much out of him if it isn't related to grammar or guns\nAngelToday at 17:25\nAnd that somehow makes it more acceptable when he does it?\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:26\nIt would be acceptable if anyone did it, that's the point\nAngelToday at 17:26\nLet me guess; it's in the name of tolerance or something.\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:26\nYour thing earlier accusing folks of nazism? That might have been horribly offensive were I Jewish\nNo, fuck no\nAngelToday at 17:26\nExcuse me, when did I accuse folks of nazism?\njacobkToday at 17:27\nhi\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:27\nFuck tolerance, it's about anti-censorship and not letting the possibility of hurting others stop you from finding humour in life.\nAh, nvm, you said something about punching nazis, I misremembered, my bad\nAngelToday at 17:28\nI'm sorry if you saw a link that wasn't there.\nI find the assumptions made about it rather self-damning, though.\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:29\nI'm likewise sorry that Hel thought we were laughing at her expense\nAngelToday at 17:29\nAs they say, don't meet your heroes.\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:31\n¯\\_(ツ)_/¯\nHonestly, I'm not even sure what we're arguing over anymore\nHel got offended\nOkay, that sucks, but it happens I suppose\nAngelToday at 17:31\nYour ability to recognise the difference between apologising for upsetting someone and censoring yourself.\nBelieve it or not, they are two different things.\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:35\nThe thing is, I am sorry she got upset. We might have triggered something or... whatever, point is, yeah, I'm sorry. \nBut if someone comes in here and starts spouting a rhetoric that mocks Hel's ethnicity tomorrow, and they said something funny, I'd laugh at that too. \nI fundamentally disagree with censorship. It shits in the face of the base of my moral code to tell someone that they can't think a certain way or say certain things. It makes liars of all of us and stifles discussion and yes, it ruins humour\nDo you want me to apologise to Hel? I would. But I'm not going to apologise for laughing and I certainly would laugh again.\nDoes that make me a horrid person? Maybe, but at least I won't lie about it.\nAngelToday at 17:36\nWould you believe me if I said that is all I was fighting for this whole godamn time?\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:36\nPretty sure I said as much at the start\nAngelToday at 17:36\nYou really didn't.\nYou have, this entire time, been spouting your anti-censorship rhetoric rather than say you feel even marginally bad about upsetting her. You've been saying you refuse to apologise for that, and would do it again in a heartbeat.\nThis whole. Fucking. Time.\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:38\nthen leave lol\nAngelToday at 17:38\nSomn, if I want some unintelligent conversation, I'll come find you, okay?\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:38\nThat would just cut off the discussion, Somn\nNeither side would learn anything\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:38\nif angel doesn't wanna be here then why stay?\nclearly the dudebro attitudes offends angel\nAngelToday at 17:39\nI have this decidedly unhelpful urge to actually try and make the world a better place.\nI know my efforts are wasted on you, but Raven might still have some potential.\nSee how without you around, we actually managed to get the point across to each other?\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:40\napologizing for jokes is antithetical to anti-censorship attitudes\nunfortunately\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:40\n^\nAngelToday at 17:40\nYes, yes, I know you haven't learned anything.\nAs I said, if I wanted unintelligent conversation, I'd call for you.\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:40\nI don't think my stance on anti-censorship will change anytime soon\nAngelToday at 17:40\nI'm not asking it to.\nDo you not get that?\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:41\nYou have, this entire time, been spouting your anti-censorship rhetoric rather than say you feel even marginally bad about upsetting her. You've been saying you refuse to apologise for that, and would do it again in a heartbeat.\nthat's bc it's dumb to apologize for something you aren't actually sorry for and would do again in a heartbeat, see\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:41\nI do, but you're asking me to apologise for laughing at a joke\nAngelToday at 17:41\nI'm not asking you to apologise for laughing at a joke.\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:41\nwhat's the point in saying sorry if you're just gonna do it again later\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:41\nThe fuck you asking for?\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:42\nlike it's 100% guaranteed that you're gonna get offended again at something sooner or later if you stay lol\nso what's the point\nAngelToday at 17:42\nAn apology for upsetting her. Jesus christ we've been over this so many times\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:42\nisn't that what he already did\nAngelToday at 17:42\nI'll give you a hint, Somn.\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:42\nhe said he was sorry for upsetting her\nAngelToday at 17:42\nIt's lead, and it's between your eyes.\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:42\nyou'll have to do it yourself unfortunately\ni have better trigger discipline than that\ni hope you have a plate carrier\nAngelToday at 17:42\nNow that's a funny joke.\nYou? Discipline?\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:42\nyup\ni doubt i'd be alive if i didn't have trigger discipline\nAngelToday at 17:43\nWhat a wasted opportunity.\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:43\nbest safety on earth, the booger picker\nwell, you'll just have to make the best of it\nthat's life, ain't it\nAngelToday at 17:43\nUnfortunately.\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:43\nain't a thing you can do about it lol\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:43\nI'm getting a stiff drink\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:44\nalso you misspelled hint\nalmost got excited bc i thought you were gonna start talking about the HIND D\nAngelToday at 17:44\nWe've really gotten to the point where you're pointing out spelling mistakes?\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:44\nwell yeah\nwhat do you think my main job is on SB when i'm reading fics\nspagcheck galore\nAngelToday at 17:44\nYou know that's basically as good as admitting you've lost the argument, right?\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:45\ni didn't know we were actually arguing\ni thought i was baiting you because i thought it was funny\nAngelToday at 17:45\nReally? If I didn't know better I'd say you had ODD.\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:45\ni do enjoy how you seem to be spinning this narrative that you're like, some kind of savior here to save ravens from being a bad person lmao\nAngelToday at 17:46\nYou've made it clear you're not worth the effort.\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:46\nyou seem to be under the impression you're actually like\ndoing anything worthwhile\ntrying to save people on the internet from the hideous fate of enjoying jokes\nwow, how terrible\nAngelToday at 17:47\nAaaand you still don't get it.\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:47\nneither do you, apparently\nBlackmarchToday at 17:47\nDude. Somn. You're a dick.\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:48\nhave i ever denied that\nlmao\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:48\nSomn is Somn\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:48\nimagine being this angry over other people finding a joke funny and not apologizing for the fact that finding a joke funny offends people\ntop seethe\nAngelToday at 17:49\nI've quite literally said several times that's not what I'm asking for, but hey, somehow you're a beta and can't read.\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:50\nI think it's because you haven't been clear as to what you want?\nOr maybe you have and it was lost somewhere above\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:51\nyou want an apology for offending your wife, no?\nAn apology for upsetting her. Jesus christ we've been over this so many times\nexcept why apologize when we aren't sorry?\nAngelToday at 17:51\nAnd somehow that translates to 'apologise for finding a joke funny'.\nWhich isn't what it is.\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:52\nwell yeah\nfinding the joke funny is what offended your wife\npeople laughed at the joke\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:52\n^\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:52\nyour wife left because people made a joke and others laughed at it\nBlackmarchToday at 17:52\nMan. You guys just...don't get it, do you?\nI don't know what this is. Some ideological thing or what.\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:53\nI'm genuinely uncertain as to what Angel wants, if you could explain it better I'd love to hear it.\nNo sarcasm\nSeriously\nAngelToday at 17:53\nI've been trying, you haven't been listening.\nSomn hasn't been helping, but I'm not sure he's capable.\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:53\nUse bullet points?\nBlackmarchToday at 17:53\nSomn just kinda jumped in, looks like.\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:54\n>\"apologize for making my wife angry!\"\n>\"no\"\n\nAngelToday at 17:54\nDoes this server actually gain anything by having him here?\nNo sarcasm.\nBlackmarchToday at 17:54\nDude. Maybe I missed it, but I forget the part where Angel asked you to come on over.\nor Raven for that matter.\nDid I miss that?\nAngelToday at 17:55\nI poked raven to start this conversation.\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:55\nIt's a free server\nsomnolentSlumberToday at 17:55\nliterally nobody else on this server has an issue with it except angel lmao\nRavensDaggerToday at 17:55\nNow, the points, let's get to them instead of talking about Somn's Somniness\nBlackmarchToday at 17:55\nI certainly do. But, yes. Let them fucking talk, Somn.\nAngelToday at 17:55\nWell, I guess if it's that kind of free I can't expect anyone living in it to be housebroken, can I?\nI'm sorry, Somn, for whatever you went through that turned you into the person you are today.","name":"","extension":"txt","url":"https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/fiUvHHRD","modified":1591595857,"id":"fiUvHHRD","size":17651,"lines":392,"own_paste":false,"theme":"","date":1591595857}