{"body":"11:17 AM <~barredowl> for real this time, first impressions, y'all?\r\n11:17 AM I already read this tale so its not much of a first impression. However, re-reading this again, I'm glad I gave it my upvote\r\n11:17 AM <+cybersqyd> It feels...a touch unsubstantial to me?\r\n11:17 AM <~barredowl> i thought at points it was a tiny bit aimless and unsubstantial like cyber mentioned\r\n11:18 AM <~barredowl> but i overall enjoyed it some bit\r\n11:18 AM <+cybersqyd> I prefer it as an introduction to a set of tales than as a standalone\r\n11:18 AM <~barredowl> yeah it does have that introduction feel to it\r\n11:19 AM It was fresh seeing one end of the induction into the Foundation with the use of family bonds\r\n11:19 AM <~barredowl> i think in that sense it's good in leading you into the mechanics of this character?\r\n11:19 AM <~barredowl> like, they have faith in people, somewhat sympathetic and caring\r\n11:19 AM <+cybersqyd> yeah\r\n11:20 AM my reaction to this is very 'meh'\r\n11:20 AM <~barredowl> the characterization in this is pretty clear\r\n11:20 AM <~barredowl> SharpEmbrace: i sorta had the same response?\r\n11:20 AM <+cybersqyd> yeah there's some nice characterisation here\r\n11:20 AM <+cybersqyd> you get a decent sense of who all these folk are as people\r\n11:20 AM <+cybersqyd> but i think at times, it feels a little much like it's telling us what they're like rather than showing it?\r\n11:20 AM I don't exactly understand why Cal would make the decision to take up this offer which he had been explicitly told would probably violate his principles without some sort of special reasoning besides money. There's nothing here that explains why Cal made this choice besides just trusting his brother, so I don't get much of a sense of his character for making this decision, which is what this tale is designed to do.\r\n11:21 AM <+cybersqyd> yeah\r\n11:21 AM <~barredowl> there is a lot of telling here\r\n11:21 AM red3: I agree.\r\n11:21 AM <+cybersqyd> I kinda get it; it feels like Cal is a man of faith; and so he's taking his brothers claim on face value\r\n11:22 AM <+cybersqyd> so I think, in some ways, that's an important characterisation\r\n11:22 AM <+cybersqyd> even if it's not really smart decision making\r\n11:23 AM <~barredowl> i'm... not sure honestly\r\n11:23 AM I guess I can see that somewhat.\r\n11:23 AM <+cybersqyd> But yeah it definitely feels...like this is meant to be a big piece about his decision and it's\r\n11:23 AM <+cybersqyd> really kinda glossed over?\r\n11:23 AM <+cybersqyd> it doesn't feel hard for him or anything?\r\n11:24 AM <+Jak> I think the introductory is an interesting hook. It establishes a scene that's not particularly tied to the Foundation, which I can admire. I also think the interactions between characters a life-like, although there may be some awkward gaps (which goes towards Cal's characterization.) It also provides some mystery on David's personality, and whatever the hell happened with him to lose his hand\r\n11:24 AM This is a very meh tale. It doesn't do much to try and has a sanitized glaze to everything. There's no conflict besides some glares and Cal stating that his parents don't really like Davey. I would've really liked to see this animosity shown through Cal more in their conversation in order to accentuate the fact that Cal has faith in people. Despite the fact that Davey left the faith and is now outcast from the rest of \r\n11:24 AM his family, Cal is willing to put that aside for the fact that he trusts others and believes that Davey has what's best for him at heart.\r\n11:25 AM Jak: Long post gang.\r\n11:25 AM I love the characters and their traits through the tone simply by dialogue. And I agree with cyber that I feel like Cal would trust his brother when he says that he won't like the principles of what they do but if he sees what they do, he'd understand it clearly and wouldn't regret doing that taking the job. Plus the setting of the church does describe a bit more about faith in his brother and confidence. However, I \r\n11:25 AM will concede that it was glossed over a bit when told its worldwide changing news\r\n11:25 AM <+Jak> red3: :D\r\n11:25 AM <~barredowl> yeah, i can see that\r\n11:25 AM <~barredowl> it's more a slice-of-life if anything, but at the same time the amount of tension in this is kinda... weird?\r\n11:25 AM <+cybersqyd> yeah\r\n11:26 AM I will say that it does good with the basic elements that it does use. The dialogue is realistic, the descriptions are crystal clear, and I was never confused about what was happening or where the characters were. I just wished that those basic elements were used for something more exciting than just a boring conversation which has way too little conflict for the change that happens to one of the characters afterwords.\r\n11:26 AM <+cybersqyd> yeah I can agree there red3\r\n11:26 AM <~barredowl> i kinda felt myself glazing over at a couple of the dialogue sections\r\n11:27 AM <~barredowl> but i'm left wondering if that's a fault of me or the writing\r\n11:27 AM <~barredowl> so i don't think i could make a sound value judgment on that front\r\n11:27 AM <@Calibri_Bold> Hi hello I’m here.\r\n11:27 AM <~barredowl> oh shit\r\n11:27 AM <@Calibri_Bold> Sorry about that haha\r\n11:27 AM <+cybersqyd> nah, I can see the dialogue sections being somewhat tedious\r\n11:27 AM <~barredowl> we're just in the middle of tearing you to shreds\r\n11:27 AM <@Calibri_Bold> Nice.\r\n11:27 AM <~barredowl> ;p\r\n11:27 AM <+cybersqyd> Hey Cal we're all saying extremely nice things about your work\r\n11:28 AM <+Jak> I think the situation is something that should also be addressed. It's not *supposed* to be something particularly grand or aspiring. I think it was intended to feel a bit more grounded. Simplistic in the terms of \"oh yeah, this happened to this character. That leaves room for development.\" I dont particularly mind the un-exciting aspect of it. I think it helps ground the characters relationship by a lot.\r\n11:28 AM <~barredowl> yeah, a little\r\n11:28 AM <+Jak> Emphasis the familiarity between charactera\r\n11:28 AM <+Jak> FUCK characters*\r\n11:28 AM <+cybersqyd> Jak: see on the one hand, I can agree with you; but on the other hand, just cos something is deliberately un-exciting doesn't excuse it from being un-exciting?\r\n11:28 AM <~barredowl> but at some parts it felt a little bit like the characters were talking to /us/ and not each other?\r\n11:29 AM <~barredowl> which is a problem i face all the time\r\n11:29 AM <+Jak> cybersqyd: that's very true. But I also think looking at it front that angle almost detracts from the characterization? The mood/tone? Although yes, I do agree with you\r\n11:29 AM Jak: I can kind of agree with that, but there is definitely a line between something being more slice-of-life and something just being completely lifeless due to a lack of conflict, and this crosses that line several times. Sure, somebody could write 100,000 words about a family going through their normal everyday life and it can be great writing, but if there's no tension or conflict, then there's no reason for me to \r\n11:29 AM get through the first sentence.\r\n11:29 AM <+Jak> from*\r\n11:30 AM <@Calibri_Bold> Red is very correct.\r\n11:30 AM <~barredowl> i can see that\r\n11:30 AM <+cybersqyd> yeah; I kinda agree here\r\n11:30 AM <@Calibri_Bold> And it’s something that, in retrospect, I should have considered.\r\n11:30 AM the characters are fine, but they're not engaging enough to make up for the lack of tension\r\n11:30 AM <+cybersqyd> yeah\r\n11:31 AM <+Jak> That's very true. I think something that's influencing it is Cal's background in the first sentence, which opens in a church-setting. My belief is then \"Cal's morals and belief inherently go against the Foundation.\" Which, I feel is a satisfying conflict as it stands\r\n11:31 AM <@Calibri_Bold> I focused on making everything sound good and flow smoothly, but I didn’t consider the premise itself.\r\n11:31 AM <+cybersqyd> Jak: it's a fascinating conflict sure but it doesn't actually ever execute on that conflict\r\n11:31 AM ^\r\n11:31 AM <+Jak> Perhaps\r\n11:32 AM <+Jak> I can see the point, and I will agree that it lacks somewhat in that regard. Maybe it's just me then, idk 😂\r\n11:32 AM <+cybersqyd> I mean, you're allowed to like something\r\n11:32 AM cybersqyd: Incorrect.\r\n11:32 AM <+cybersqyd> The decision as to whether the strong characterisation is enough to make up for the weak narrative is entirely subjective\r\n11:32 AM <+Jak> pfttt\r\n11:33 AM No likeys, only bad-bad articles.\r\n11:33 AM <+Jak> (I guess a bit of it too is that it uses a character I made, sooo)\r\n11:33 AM <@Calibri_Bold> My article is bad-bad ;-;\r\n11:33 AM <~barredowl> cybersqyd: personally, i think this article juuuust crosses the line of characterization compensating for story?\r\n11:33 AM <+cybersqyd> I'm neutral on it, I think\r\n11:34 AM <~barredowl> it's wavering for me at this point\r\n11:34 AM <+cybersqyd> I don't think it's quite enough to upvote, but not quite enough to downvote either\r\n11:34 AM cybersqyd: In all seriousness, I don't believe that a single aspect of characterization is nearly enough to make up for a weak narrative. I will admit that this article isn't designed to try much; it's just for some basic writing elements and seems to almost be a bit of practice for the author, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't bore the hell out of me.\r\n11:34 AM <~barredowl> i don't want to novote, but i'm wavering between +1 to -1 territory\r\n11:34 AM <+cybersqyd> red3: sure and I'm not saying you're wrong; just that this is a subjective decision\r\n11:35 AM <~barredowl> because on one hand there are elements that i think could really be used to make something great\r\n11:35 AM <@Gee0765> oh this article\r\n11:35 AM <@Gee0765> for me the characterisation was just about good enough\r\n11:35 AM <~barredowl> but how the things are combined aren't really substantive tbh?\r\n11:35 AM <+cybersqyd> yeah\r\n11:35 AM I am very, very, **very** meh on this article. I'm going to downvote though, because I want something more exciting with this level of writing ability.\r\n11:35 AM <~barredowl> yeah, i think i'll do that too :|\r\n11:35 AM I'm keeping my upvote on it cause honestly, the characterisation and the use of the Foundation using family as a way to hire fresh blood for their numbers is fresh from either \"bag em and tag em\" or the \"Either work for us, or take a drug and forget we ever exist\"\r\n11:35 AM <@Calibri_Bold> red3: I’m gonna take that as a compliment.\r\n11:36 AM <+cybersqyd> BlueJones, yeah, I think there's definitely a lot of really nice aspects to it like that\r\n11:36 AM <+cybersqyd> I just...wish it did more with 'em?\r\n11:36 AM <+Jak> I'm also going to keep my upvote\r\n11:36 AM <+cybersqyd> I'm keeping my novote\r\n11:36 AM i see nothing wrong with this as a concept\r\n11:36 AM cybersqyd: Oh yeah no doubt that mroe could have been done but at the moment imo its good enough to keep my upvote\r\n11:37 AM <+cybersqyd> yeah\r\n11:38 AM <+Jak> any other thoughts?\r\n11:38 AM <+cybersqyd> I like the image in the email\r\n11:38 AM <+cybersqyd> it looks cool\r\n11:38 AM <+Jak> cybersqyd: I agree\r\n11:39 AM <~barredowl> sorry, my brother's friend crashed my internet\r\n11:39 AM <+Jak> neato-mosquito\r\n11:40 AM <~barredowl> so, in summary, there are nice elements, but i don't think they lend themselves to this story in the best way\r\n11:40 AM <~barredowl> namely, the lackluster conflict doesn't really justify itself very well, and there isn't a lot of substance\r\n11:40 AM <+cybersqyd> yeah\r\n","name":"A Bold Choice","extension":"txt","url":"https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/LnqK9P6G/A+Bold+Choice","modified":1589654550,"id":"LnqK9P6G","size":11669,"lines":114,"own_paste":false,"theme":"","date":1589654550}